Weaponsmith Archive

/agree with DomMantell

I do believe that it is more constructive to work with your correspondent on how to improve your class instead of asking for nerfs of the tools that another class uses. T21's were already nerfed a while ago anyway.

Siaro Talbek
Confused Brawler
Morrigan, Corellia

I had some thoughts about the being a commando/rifleman issue only but we make the gun. When we use it or see it used we know it's strengths and limitations. Would a T21 nerf directly affect us? Probably not, but I'm fairly certain that we have a great deal of insight into how weapons should be used or what they should be doing which is why the question was asked here.

It's my belief that Combat Rebalance will also generate alot of changes in the weaponsmith profession. We all want to know how to make the best weapons available which is wonderful but we should also be concerned about how they are used because who really want's to see more broken weapons in the game? (Elite carbine for example)

So maybe I should rephrase the question. Do you see a problem with Commandoes larglely relying uppon disposable weapons to achieve AP3.

What would happen to Rifleman if T21's were AP2?

I'll probably post this in commando/rifleman but our profession is invested in this issue. You cannot bury your head in the sand when issues like this come up.If anyone should understand the role of the weapon it should be the master weaponsmith.

Given the choice between style over substance. I'll take a sandwich.

My understanding of the T-21 is that it's basically a light man portable version of a repeating blaster. To me this sounds like it's the Star Wars equivalent of a machine-gun rather than a type of rifle, which would put it more in the realm of the commando than the rifleman. That said, I realize there would be heck to pay if they took T-21's away from riflemen and gave them to commandos, so that probably isn't going to happen.

Rather than nerf riflemen, I think commandos should have some type of new heavier non-disposable blaster weapon. Maybe the tripod mounted repeating blaster, though how that would be implemented in game I'm not exactly sure. Maybe it would take a few seconds to deploy, and once deployed you wouldn't be able to move unless you equipped a new weapon (with a corresponding time delay to simulate packing up the weapon). This would make it more of a static defensive weapon, which might not be too popular for PvP and perhaps too powerful for PvE.

Slim Vargo, Corbantis

IMO, the T21 should be AP2....If there were ATATs in the game, theyd be AP3...no guy with a rifle or a machine gun should be penetrating that kind of armor. Period.

Commando weapons would be another story. They should have all the heavy AP3 weapons at their disposal, it is their intended role to be the heavy hitters or "tank busters"...In WW2 you didnt see sharpshooters putting holes in tanks...The guys with the portable rocketlaunchers or panzerschriek (spelling?) or landmines would be dealing with the tanks...

This issue doesnt directly relate to us smiths, but it would have an effect on us. Were they to make the commando actually a useful profession in PvP, and nerf the t21, I guarantee there would be a big shift of people moving to be commandos. The FOTM people will go with whatever profession has an edge over the others. This might mean youd (as a smith)need to gear up to make more commando weapons, and less of the big selling T-21s.

Cornelioso Jones (Bloodfin)
Noble- Thayer (Bria)

After looking at the range of weapons the commando has access to I have come to the obvious conclusion that it's the heavy support class of the game. This being the case most of the commando disposable weapons have an AP of 3 and that thecommandoes role in combat is to deal with AR3 (Heavy) opponents. Though the flamethrower and to a lesser extent the HAR are powerful weapons they don't provide adequite AP for the commando to use them in their primary role.

The rifleman however have access to the ultimate AP3 weapon in the game and with the exception of possibly some of the looted schems is one of the best "tank busting" guns in the game.

Why is the T21 the only nondisposable ranged weapon in the game with an AP3?

Considering that the Rifleman is a sniper which is someone thatshould have limited effectiveness against vehicles, why have the AP3?

Is the T21 undermining the commandoes combat role by providing to much heavy support to a very powerful class that requires limited skill investment?

Though they may have tried this once before but it's my belief that the T21 should be scaled back to an AP2 weapon.

What do you think?

Given the choice between style over substance. I'll take a sandwich.

Well I think its stupid when you can run with a bigass rifle and actually hit something. But after combat rebalance they will make it for the larger rifles that you have to go prone to shoot.

K E T
M A L I C E
12 Point Master Weaponsmith212 -5756, South of Coronet

Bought this account on ebay how do I play

LOL.....when a lone rifleman can take out an AT-ST within 10 shots... I would hardly call them nerfed.

Kestiat Kollo
Master Combat Medic, Master Smuggler
Colonel, Imperial Navy - Naboo Division
Corbantis

Ikec
Master Artisan, Master Armorsmith, Master Shipwright

Oddly enough, I'm Master Rifles along with my trade, and have an alt Master Commando, so in a way I'm under all aspects under discussion however peripherally.

I think the crux of the matter is profession role and definition. Before you start arguing about what weapons should be available to what class, what really needs a pass is where everyone fits in combat. Examples have been tossed around how 'riflemen should be snipers' and 'you don't see sharpshooters busting holes in tanks' and how commando types are ranged heavy support that should be the biggest damage dealers.

That's all well and good but sadly it's all just irrelevant trivia (note, that's not insulting the posters as irrelevant, just that in context to the matter under discussion the items brought up are).

Yes, you don't see "sharpshooters" busting tanks, but neither do you see "sharpshooters" having to get into pistol range to open fire.

Sure, commando types "should" be a ranged heavy support class, but what we have in game is they run around flamethrowing everything in sight.

Personally I believe discussion of weapon types available to professions is pointless without discussing how it should fit into the game mechanic. You can't simply change weapon profiles and so "this as it it should be" without discussing how else to compensate.

Given the range restrictions, the only thing to 'simulate' a sharpshooter for a rifleman is to give them a heavy hitting rifle. You can't simply say 'sharpshooters' shouldn't have the same AP as a commando -cut the AP down and leave it at that. You call them sharpshooters but they have none of the real abilitiesof a sharpshooter. Lower the AP of a T21 on the basis of them being snipers must therefore go hand in hand with giving them the ability to shoot like snipers - example, firing further than 64m.

There's no point comparing commando to combat engineer if there's only a limited number of targets in the entire game that would be considered as a 'tank' or 'fortification' target.

In the game's mechanic now, what's the *role* of a commando and a rifleman? If we wish to change the role, how can we change the mechanic to compensate? Hard and fast changes like T-21s to AP2 just 'because it sounds right for a rifle' just doesn't cut it. Pistols firing the same range as rifles doesn't sound right either. So a compromise must be made.

I know I sound all pro rifleman in this post, but I'm not really - I'd like to see some changes for commando - but this would involve more than just adding or changing weapons. The entire environment needs to change in order to GIVE them a role. Giving them different or new weapons won't fundamentally change a single thing in terms of how a commando's role fits if nothing else changes about the game's environment - it will just turn them into a FotM.

Example - T-21 is heavy AP but energy based, most heavy fortifications or tank type targets are vulnerable to blast but with solid resists to energy. If we want to tweak commando role to be ranged heavy support, anti armour, and anti fortification, we actually need more targets of this type and of consequence, without necessarily changing a single thing about weapons. The only tank type target I can think of that can really be engaged is an AT-ST - things like SBDs that spawn inside the corridors of the Corvette or in tunnels of the DWB don't make for smart use of ranged ordinance. Fortifications are faction bases, but even if you nail it, what's the point in the end?

It would be great to have a base on the scale of size of the Rebel Hideout, with multiple vectors of attack, turrets, whose fate actually means something. If control of said large base meant denial of some services to the opposite faction, or something like that.

As a side, I'd like to see rocket launcher ingredients eased up considerably, since the stats are nice, but the overhead for production is crazy, which serves as a bottleneck for availability. Anyone who thinks commando weapons are underpowered has never used a nice damage sliced heavy expendable as it would beused if they weren't so expensive(which I was able to, producing my own). Just with a damage sliced HPBC at master commando level, I could destroy enraged rancor lairs in around ten to fifteen seconds from full health. I'd invite any master commando to try it. You literally fire every second to every other second even on a damage sliced HPBC (assuming it was a well made HPBC to start). My firing animation couldn't keep up with my actual rate of fire.

Anyway enough blabbering from me.

Thank you for your responses,

At it's core the issue we're talking about is conceptual role. What is the conceptual role of the T21? Where does it fit in the grand design of the game? Unfortunately I used the word nerf to reflect the word change which may be the reason why I've received some negative feedback.

In my opinion the Rifleman should be a deadly accurate sniper that can in the proper circumstances deliver lethal fire from extreme ranges. I would not wish for this role to be diminished in any capacity. If the AP were reduced on this weapon I would desire that the damage on the T21 be ratcheted up a bit and that the specials be reasonably improved. The issue I have is that with a AP3 the gun diminishes the role of commando as a heavy support class. I would hope that if substantive changes are made to this weapon the schematic too would be modified.

We really need to examine the role of our crafts in the game. Presently there are some weapons that have such limited roles there is little reason to craft them. The performance margins between an E11 carbine and the Elite carbine are too narrow when you consider that the Elite is a specialists weapon.

We could look at melee types and examine the Fencers dilemma. They have allready stated that they feel that there is a problem with stun damage and will change the game to provide mobs with more stun defence which leaves the fencer with kinetic and stun. One defence type which is generally universal and another facing adjustment. Genreally the melee classes predisposition toward kinetic adversely affects the scale of damage they can apply. To make up for the kinetic resists the range of damage wouldappear to have to be better than the comparable ranged weapons. the question should be askedwhat other damage types would be suitable for high tech melee weapons?

The fact that the flame thrower does an obscene amount of damage puzzles me. The purpose of the flame thrower is not to incinerate one target but to set multiple targets on fire which shoudl result in some sort of panic effect. It's a terror weapon and should generate fear. If they had called it a plasma gun and maybe provided a bit of AP it would probably make more sense that it would be the commandoes most prized possesion.

The fact is that the weaponsmiths need to provide feedback for the conceptual roles of their weapons. who would knoe the limitations and strengths better than we?

Given the choice between style over substance. I'll take a sandwich.

Combat classes, because they actually use the stuff. WS typically only know what sells well and what's useless. I don't know what carbineers do, all I know is that E11 is trash, DH17 is for newbies and special-spamming BH (not any more because of stupid equipment delay), laser is forPVE, elite is for PVP, DXR6 is for PVP and things with energy resist.

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