Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Gated Resources in a broken profession (?)...something from another point of view
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BoberFett
Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:22 pm
#1
He's clueless. Most weapons seem somewhat balanced for damage based on gated values. The T21 uses plenty of low CD metal and it still manages to be on of the best weapons in the game.
Some weapons need some tweaking like the Elite carbine, so that the max experimetation after gating provides a bit higher damage, but all in all it's done pretty well.
Resource gating is done for a good reason. It forces you to choose your material carefully when there are multiple possibilities. If you need any metal with CD, you aren't going to use iron. You're going to want to use copper.
It's the crafting equivalentof choosing the right damage type weapon based on the resistances and armor of your opponent.
Torael
Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:00 am
#2
Okay. A friend of mine who's a Droid Engineer by profession recently took up weaponsmith for fun, just to play around. He quickly became rather disgusted, stating that it's a "broken" profession, that gating is borked, etc. At one point in relation to gating, he said "It would be close to what? 85% of max? then it would be 85% of DESIGNED MAXIMUM. If you have a DESIGNED MAX, why do you never allow it to be reached? BAD DESIGN"
He's also certain that weaponsmithing sees far more moderate successes in experimentation, or at least far morethan droid engineer at least.
Now, I personally disagree; weaponsmith sure doesn't seem broken to me.Much as I'd like to have a T21 made with 950/950 Polonium, it's not going to happen, and would probably be a bad thing overall if it did. But it got me curious. What's the rest of the community think?
johnautry613
Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:10 am
#3
He's on crack. We only have a few items that need tweaking....ADV Stcok!...but htats about it.
SkyeDarkangel
Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:41 am
#4
Sorry, this sounds very plausible to me.
E11's are a good example. They're next to useless because: Plumbum Iron. Highly gated CD.
T21's are a very bad example as Polonium is about the only really hard gated resource, Ditanium isn't awful, and it's made up for by the other resources which lack CD. Why are Laser Rifles/Carbines the most prefered all around weapon? Because they're made with 2 non-hard gated resources! Copper and Aluminum. Most good Phrik Aluminums reach a 700+ CD and 900+ OQ for WS purposes.
If things like Plumbum and such are "in-line" and just fine, then why are SR-Combat's always so useless? And why are Elites NOT! (Note that Elite doesn't get as many "other" resources as a T21 to even out it's bashing via Polonium)
Half the weapons we can make are all but useless because they require metals that SUCK!
Also, how many of you have been other professions like Doctor or DE? In most other professions ADVANCED Components ALWAYS beat normal. Lowest values start where highest values of non-Advanced stop. So why are our Advanced Rifle Barrels so bloody horrible? To "balance" it? No. Because of Rhodium. Adv. Pistol Barrels can reach a higher level because they don't use another fairly gated resource, Duranium Steel!
The fact is, the gates are all whacked. I've been Chef, Doctor, CM, and DE multiple times, and when I became WS I noticed how rough gating was. I assumed that Adv Rifle barrels were broken and on the list to be fixed, because unless Weaponsmith is seperate from the basic design of crafting, the Adv. Rifle Barrels should be BETTER than normal! Also, we're the only profession which is gated on maxes. Are you trying to say 60% Damage is the best we should ever see on some weapons because their 100% are too high? That doesn't even make sense!
Dev 1: Hey, since we're using gated resources, let's make them max of this gun some really super high number that it can never reach to fit with the resource gate! Then make the REAL max only 60%!
Dev 2: Wouldn't it just be easier to design the weapons on more realistic resources?
Dev 1: Why? It makes more sense to base somethings power 66% on Conductivity then make the max CD of those resources, um, below 100!
Dev 2: That doesn't make any sense!
Dev 1: It doesn't need to! The players will just assume it's working because it's "always been that way!" Hahahaha!
If we can get a direct statement from the Devs saying our current setup is fine and dandy... then sure, I'll buy that Weaponsmith is so "special" (we are much better than all the other professions, right?) that we actually are based on different base ideas for crafting. Until then, it doesn't fit with the general rules for crafting professions, and the gates that aren't balanced by lots of other resources makes certain classes of weapons totally useless.
Pheloneus
Sat Jun 26, 2004 7:58 am
#5
weaponsmith is not broken, and yes, some weapons are totally useless. laser weapons became popular because thats what weaponsmiths put out there and the fact that they are ap2.
Redguard
Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:11 pm
#6
I tend to agree with the initial post. The idea of gated resources is reasonable but making component requirements that use gated resources is counterproductive. If a weapons requires a consuctive material why would you use Iron which has the conductivity of a rock. It's my perception that the blame lies with the schematics. Actually I'd rather use an E11 over an elite carbine as it's damage is marginally lower, has the same AP and has lower action costs. The problem is that most of the othercarbines pale in comparison to a good laser. There is no incentive in building anything else.
I believe that combat rebalance will also be somewhat of the weaponsmith tweak. You cannot affect combat without affecting this profession......more later.
Be0Wulfe
Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:37 pm
#7
My opinion - it's not as broke as some others, but it sure is gimpy ... in both legs ... and arms ... and the head's kinda lolling to one side drooling.
Profession needs a "re-balance"
You have a small handful of weapons in consistent use, the rest are an afterthought at the moment. The lot of a weaponsmith is to act as foreman for a factory farm. Woop. E.
Handsnake
Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:15 am
#8
Well, here was a rebuttal I've heard: That constraining the max by gates on damage, you would be forcing the other points that a WS would have into durability, range, or HAM costs.
At first, that sounded rational, until I realized that forcing the usage of other lines is again, not the same way that those decisions are made in any other crafting prof with multiple lines. That 'forcing' in those lines is done by balancing for profit. The lines other than the primary are important to the variety of items produced. The usefulness of the lines is why a subsidiary line is hit - not because the crafter HAS to use up his other points.
The ideal is that the items in type produced by non-masters are always able to be improved is consistent in other profs. Masters can make BETTER items - this is the underpinning of much of the way that a variety of items with high quality would be available. But the way that firearms crafting works, only a few items are the best, these 'chassis' for adv components (barrels, handlers) are not all only in the master's skill box, but scattered around. There are weapons that no one makes, that just don't prove to be useful - but they're higher in the skill tree than the ones that are 'good to make'.
There are too many 'orphaned' schematics.
The 'why' that this is this way is indecipherable. It's almost as if half of the subcomponents were designed under a completely different set of assumptions of gating, and the chassis (weapons) were made under a second.
I also believe that the AP numbers were missing on half the schems, personally. 
Handsnake
Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:29 am
#9
And I want to acknowledge that the reason that currently the HAM costs or the range not being more important than the damage line is because of the current imbalance with buffs, the HAM substat buffs specifically, and armor. It's in my opinion a symptom of the current messed up combat system.
It just seemed to me that more of the weapons should be useful if made by a master, used by a master. But now, it's just a very few 'main models' that anyone uses. That just doesn't seem like a healthy response in-game to an schematic list for a profession. Seems that the entire damage range may have to change as well as gating or schems with the upcoming combat rebalance. Or they'd just have a continual 'main model' list of the same few weapons.
Solarstryder
Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:13 am
#10
I'll throw in my 2 creds.
I think gating is a good thing, but in some cases many weapons are 'double-gated'. (T21 for example) Where the components AND the 'chasis' (as someone put it) are limited by resources. I wish this was looked at more because I would like to see more of my schematics being used. Not just Lasers and Jawas.
And I would like to add that I think making experimentation more useful when on Range and HAM would help the profession. Using 4 points in Effectivness just to drop HAM by 3 points is not beneficial.
CorenLanra
Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:51 am
#11
The fact is, if you have the best "gated" resources, people will buy them from you
Redguard
Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:40 pm
#12
Corenlanra posted:
The fact is, if you have the best "gated" resources, people will buy them from you
/sarcasm on
Kind of misses the point IMHO.
/sarcasm off
The fact is that a number of weapons will remain unused because of the type of resources used in the schematics. They can address this by either making all schematics use gated/specific resources, changing resource composition to allow the use ofmore generic resources or finally changing the Schematics all together to provide an opportunity for all weapons to be utilized. Not all things will be equal but some of the present despairities make no sense.
Examples (why is the Elite carbine outperformed in almsot everything but minimum damage in comparison to the Laser carbine? Is it the consumers fault or the weapons design that the E11 is not a very popular weapon? What's the point of a DL44 metal? Why dont some of the advanced components offer AP bonuses ? Whyare the prime weapons of the rebellion (SR Pistol) and Empire (Power 5 Pistol) generally inferior to almost every other kind of weapon available? Why is there no difference between a DLT20 and a DLT20a? Why must kinetic remain a melee damage type? Why cant we custom design specific weapons and modifty damage types? (okay thats a pipe dream) Etc etc etc
Alot if not all of these issues have to do with resources being gated and schematics being out of whack with the physics of combat. If they wanted certain weapons to fall within a certain damage category then they should have been designed to do so. At this point it's just time to wait and see as combat rebalance is going to have to drasticly affect the way weapons are made.
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