Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: True Damage vs. SAC comparison
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XrioT
Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:30 pm
#1
Just to give the weaponsmiths something to base effectiveness of weapons post-CU, I have done many tests on Damage vs. SAC with respect to the worthiness of experimenting on one vs. the other. Here is the test I performed.
Test Control Mechanism
1. Test the weapons on an enemy that is my level; the tests were performed verses CL 79 Geonosians to get a true perspective on how the stats vary over time.
2. Use a macro which cycles between attacks, this macro will be used for each weapon to get a true test of the weapons abilities over time.
3. Use weapons with equivalent speed and accuracy.
The macro was as follows
/attack1;
/pause 2;
/attack2;
/pause 2;
/attack 1;
/.....
/....
after 30 or so seconds
/centerOfBeing; 'to keep me alive without heals for the duration of the battle
/repeat macro
The pause 2 was a perfect timing in between skill recharges so it optimized the attack speed.
All tests were performed with a Stun Baton (i didn't have the time to test a wide variety of weapons). I used one that was crafted with strictly damage in mind with high SAC (110), one that had a good damage and lower SAC (85-90), and finally one that had premium SAC (65)
** means that the action cost ran out very quickly
* means that the action cost ran out just towards the end of the battle
The Kashyyyk loot weapon listed is the blade of nec____ (can't remember the name of it but its 500 or so modified DPS with 85 SAC)
The results are in!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee Hit/Melee StrikeMH/MAssault MStrike/MAssaultMH/Body Hit
High Dmg : 2:32 min 3:14 min NA NA
(Action OUT) (Action OUT**) Action OUT too quick
Dmg/SAC : 2:52 min 2:41 min NA2:33 min
(Full Action) (1/2 Action)Action OUT too quick (Action OUT**)
Low SAC : 3:29 min 3:03 min 3:49 min 2:45 min
(Full Action) (Full Action) Action OUT fairly quick (Full Action)
Unarmed : 2:48 min 2:47 min NA NA
(1/2 Action) (Action OUT*)
Kashyyyk Loot:1:36 min 1:26 min NA 1:18 min
(Full Action) (Action OUT*)(Action OUT*)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, the results aren't quite as impressive as i'd hoped, maybe someone can come to a better conclusion or devise a better test, maybe with a different weapon, but I do have some conclusions of my ownto draw from this.
To me these results demonstrate that it may be better to have a weapon with a balanced Dmg and SAC. The Dmg/SAC weapon took out the enemy in the same amount of time when rotating melee hit and body hit, but would also give you more flexibility with using status effecting specials without sacrificing the action cost of the strictly Dmg weapon.A fully experimented SAC weapon may not be worth the minimal damage it produces, and the 65 SAC really isn't going to let you spam the high cost specials much better than a good balanced weapon when it comes down to action cost verses damage output.
I believe that the goal of developing weapons as it pertains to damage and SAC is to devise a weapon that will allow for a high level special attack accompanied with the generic attack, and provide a low enough SAC such that the users action doesn't run out until toward the end of an even-level battle such as this.
Unfortunately this testing also proved how good the Kashyyyk weapon loots can be. I was able to take out enemies in half the time, with essentially the same action cost as the better experimented sac weapon in the end, because the battle lasted far less time. Sorry to say, but even a 500DPS stun baton is no match for this loot weapon unless it has a SAC lower than 85, and even if it does, the damage output will likely not be as high (1040 max dmg on the loot weapon) and with the speed causing the DPS to be 500, there will be more attacks performed to get the same result which will require a lower SAC to be as efficient.
One last note, it is also far more helpful (with reference to my above statement) to have Damage experimented than speed, because a higher speed just means more specials, which in turn means more action cost over time and eventually the DPS will deplete as action runs out.
Hence, a lower DPS weapon with significantly higher damage output than a higher DPS weapon that emphasizes speed will bemore efficient in a longer battle.
Ok, so maybe I did come up with some decent results out of the tests... go figure 
Message Edited by XrioT on 06-06-2005 09:40 PM
XrioT
Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:45 am
#2
No comments/No flames/Arguements/Compliments?
Is everyone on vacation? =P
ofim
Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:44 am
#3
ADPS to SAC ratio would probably give a decent indicator of the weapons combat effectiveness, Post CU you really have to look at all the weapons atributes to see the weapons true potential. Some formula to come up with a effectiveness rating between DPS/SAC/Acc. would be nice I think.
ShugFlurry
Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:33 am
#4
It's hard to make a formula that says x is better than y, whereas pre-cu people hit speed caps and just went for max damage since buffs negated ham costs. Post-cu it would be better to try various weapons and see which one works the best. I'm trying to hunt down some 160 gorax shards for my alt. I believe the best way to get high-end weapons would be to experiment into SAC on the subs, though using pre-cu barrels with -6 SAC instead of -9 SAC post-cu since they do give a slight edge on the damage. Advanced scopes and stocks from pre-cu as well. I have crafted a 904 max featherweight FWG5 with some 104 max shards with 77 SAC, now trying to improve on this with higher shards since at the moment my alt uses a 966 max with 91 SAC.
Vade_WS
Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:44 am
#5
XrioT wrote:No comments/No flames/Arguements/Compliments?
Is everyone on vacation? =P
No, I think more WS are sick of the supposed "DPS vs SAC vs fluffles" debate.
XrioT wrote:To me these results demonstrate that it may be better to have a weapon with a balanced Dmg and SAC.
If you read closesly, you'll see many WS trying to do exactly this.
XrioT
Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:57 am
#6
I see, I see. Well the tests were performed more for my own benefit (because im generally selfish) but I figured i'd share them with everyone else. Didn't read enough of the WS forums to realizethere was an on-going debate regarding the issue, so I suppose it makes sense why there's not much input left
ShugFlurry
Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:03 am
#7
Thanks for taking your time to post this. It just backs up what we've been thinking recently
Vade_WS
Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:39 am
#8
XrioT wrote:
I see, I see. Well the tests were performed more for my own benefit (because im generally selfish) but I figured i'd share them with everyone else. Didn't read enough of the WS forums to realize there was an on-going debate regarding the issue, so I suppose it makes sense why there's not much input left
Please, don't get me wrong. I certainly find the information useful and I encourage you to post more as you find it. It helps me to explain choices to my customers.
Speaking for myself, the "generic" weapons I make tend to balance damage and SAC as you recommend. These weapons go on the vendor. Everything else is custom. I wait until I get information on playstyle and desired stats from a customer before I make custom weapons. One customer might like to spam certain specials, while another does not, and their weapons will be very different. Your data supports this; i.e. different special combinations work better with certain weapons than others.
I've never subscribed to the one-stat-to-rule-them-all mentality, and I suspect you don't either. But, over the past month, we've had some interesting threads from people trying to "educate" us weaponsmiths about how we are making our weapons wrong. My apologies if it seems like I snapped at you.
XrioT
Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:13 am
#9
Vade_WS wrote:
I've never subscribed to the one-stat-to-rule-them-all mentality, and I suspect you don't either. But, over the past month, we've had some interesting threads from people trying to "educate" us weaponsmiths about how we are making our weapons wrong. My apologies if it seems like I snapped at you.
Nah, no hard feelings at all. I'm actually thinking of running these tests with a couple more weapons so I can use the results as a basisfor creating a calculating tool that automatically generates the end kill-time result based on the user plugging in the min/max damage, the SAC, and selecting specials to alternate between to automate the target Dmg/SAC decision process when making a weapon or choosing which weapon suits the customer best. Again though, my WS alt is greedy and only likes to service my combatant so it may only be made public upon request =P
Stafen
Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:53 am
#11
XrioT wrote:
Vade_WS wrote:
I've never subscribed to the one-stat-to-rule-them-all mentality, and I suspect you don't either. But, over the past month, we've had some interesting threads from people trying to "educate" us weaponsmiths about how we are making our weapons wrong. My apologies if it seems like I snapped at you.
Nah, no hard feelings at all. I'm actually thinking of running these tests with a couple more weapons so I can use the results as a basis for creating a calculating tool that automatically generates the end kill-time result based on the user plugging in the min/max damage, the SAC, and selecting specials to alternate between to automate the target Dmg/SAC decision process when making a weapon or choosing which weapon suits the customer best. Again though, my WS alt is greedy and only likes to service my combatant so it may only be made public upon request =P
I tried to do this but their are a few missing formulea which I could not find:
1) How attack speed depends on weapon used / player speed and special used.
2) How damage output depends on accuracy, creature defence and max/min of weapon
Any clues?
Mor-Dan
Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:50 pm
#12
until the examine window is fixed i suggest only doing small weapon runs and custom work. when that hits it could change everything we know right now.
as for the accuracy affect on dmg, yes, higher accuracy increases dmg dealt to a particular cap. i have personally tested this and found it true.
as for the accuracy affect on dmg, yes, higher accuracy increases dmg dealt to a particular cap. i have personally tested this and found it true.
ParisTeta
Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:10 am
#13
Now take a Neutron Pixie, a Blob Candy and try again with improved action regen rate.
I imagine, you'll get much better result with the low sac weapons or the lowSAC/Dam combo.
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