Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Can you master weaponsmiths please tell me what's up?
There is your answer right there. Be happy it's even that good.
ViSDarkcrest wrote:
he said he got 1 failure and 1 moderate success
I have 14.46 tools and 98% 42+ stations. I have never had a failure using this combo. Once in a while I still get a "moderate success".
But they still don't make much difference because experimentation it's self is bugged. I get good success that still reduce quality all the time.
Nasents wrote:
I have 14.46 tools and 98% 42+ stations. I have never had a failure using this combo. Once in a while I still get a "moderate success".
But they still don't make much difference because experimentation it's self is bugged. I get good success that still reduce quality all the time.
I have 14.95 tools and 42.94 stations. I still get failures on both experimentation and combines, it is possible. FR has yet to be proven to do anything more than exactly jack, so until it is, I highly doubt the outcome of this weapon had anything to do with it.
Regardless, it looks like dude a.) doesn't make good Flamethrowers in the first place and/or b.) flubbed on your gun. Next time, ask around to try to find the Weaponsmiths who make the best Flamers on the server, but bear in mind, failure does happen and it's not always guaranteed that your gun will come out fantastic.
Additionally, if you are persistent in annoying some smith for Krayt combines (not insinuating you are), they might just give in, and decide to make your Flamethrower with absolute crap materials just to spite you, and you'd probably have no way to tell. So, ask someone you know, or be very polite when making requests. Sort of like a "don't be mean to the drive-thru guy unless you want spit on your food" kind of thing.
why is it that my gun is so much worse but used better tissues?
I've been wanting to post the answer to this (the generic question of why weapons turn out the way they do, posted over and over on this board) for so long, but just never got around to it. At some point I'll post it in detail, but here's the abbreviated version:
1.) In a nutshell, ALL master weaponsmiths are created equal. This is a fundamental truth that all weaponsmiths get (read the next statement before you disagree), that most non-weaponsmiths don't get. Of course, there are certainly differences in who you'd want to work with and other reasons why beyond skill levels, and I'll post that at the end.
2.) In 99% of all cases, only access to resources matters. If you were able to open a brand new account today and you ground to master weaponsmith by 10pm tonight, and you were then given the best resources on your server, YOU would be the best weaponsmith on your server (assuming a minimal amount of knowledge on how to build weapons).
3.) In a very few cases, some weaponsmiths have access to skill enhancement tapes that increase their skill levels beyond the ordinary limits of all other weaponsmith. However, as the "Damage" rating (which controls damage and speed) can be maxed out by any master weaponsmith, the differences between an "enhanced" master and an "ordinary" master are minimal, and typically only show in miniscule differences in HAM costs (the most commonly improved stat after Damage).
As for the entire process as a whole:
The quality of the materials used determines the initial build percentage for each individual component and the item as a whole. Results vary depending on the item in question, but as I build a lot of two-handed curved swords, I'll use that as an example. Please keep in mind that all of this is straight from memory and I don't have access to my notes, so it may be a touch off.
Using a type of Dolovite Iron (the specific resource required) with a Unit Toughness of 870 (highest available to date on Corbantis, as far as I know), I create an advanced sword core with initial build ratings of 27% across the board - in Damage, Durability, Efficiency, and Range. This is considered a "great" result, and anything higher is extremely unlikely. Even an "amazing" result will only grant a 28%, and this makes no difference to the end result, so I'm satisfied with 27%.
From there, I have a choice of experimenting anywhere from 1-10 points in each individual category. The experimentation interface will show 9 boxes (2 filled in and 7 empty)in each category (that's because I'm limited by the 870 UT - a 994 UT, for example, would give me 10 boxes in each category, with perhaps a 30%+ result - i.e., 3 filled in and 7 empty). Each empty box represents a potential +10% increase, but the most we can improve with one experimentation point is 8% (usually 7%).
I choose to put one point into Damage. You can experiment all 7 at one time (followed by 3 later) and save yourself the time, however, and I haven't ever noticed any difference between the two approaches. Still, I'm a touch superstitious on this and besides, I want to see the results of each individual point, so I do it one at a time.
With each point, I would estimate I have something like an 80% chance of a "great" or "amazing" result with a 7% or 8% result. For the record, not all "great" results are created equal - I have seen some at 6% or even 5%. However, this is rather rare. A "failure" is typically a 0% "increase," but is quite destructive (in my opinion) because it decreases the stats on the weapon without decreasing the percentage you've experimented to. In other words, a sword at 50% with nothing but "great" results will be significantly better than a sword at 50% with a failure result.
Also, a "good" or "moderate" result can skew everything. While a string of "great" results can steadily increase minimum damage, maximum damage, and attack speed, a "good" result mayimprove maximum damage by a lot, minimum damage by a little, and attack speed not at all. Or, it may be the other way around (between minimum and maximum damage), with noimprovement in attack speed. A "moderate" result might increase nothing, or give the same type of results (in lesser amounts) than the "good" result. Other MWS's will have to check me on this, but I do believe those are the only possibilities, and that neither one will ever improve speed.
Another point to consider: I mentioned using an "Advanced Sword Core" in this process. Note that I could have also used a "Sword Core" in this process as well, though this would have led to a second-rate, piece of junk sword (again, in my opinion). In most weapons that we can make, there is this same option; however, the "Advanced" components typically use materials that are significantly harder to find. The payoff, however, is tremendous. A Sword Core (SC) experimented to its maximum value will only give the same benefits as an Advanced Sword Core (ASC) experimented to approximately 30-35%. That bears repeating:Basic components experimented totheir maximum value will only given the same benefits as advanced components of the same type with minimal experimentation. Advanced components yield significantly better weapons.
And the progression is not linear, by the way. An SC will go to a maximum of perhaps +12 damage (again, going off memory here), with perhaps a -.12 in speed. An ASC will start at perhaps a +8 damage and go to +43, and will start at -.2 and go to -.609.
Now, assuming I have experimented this ASC to its maximum value (87% in this case), I then combine it with the regular components to make the standard weapon (the two-handed curved sword in this case). From there, I use steel with an SR rating of 994 and polymer with an SR rating of 967. These materials, combined with the ASC component, then determine the final percentage I can experiment the entire item to. Note that even if I were to have an ASC with a value of 99%, a low-quality Steel or Polymer will have a drastically limiting effect (especially with the Steel). 70 points worth of difference on the SR rating of the Steel equates to a sword with a 2.5 speed instead of 2.6, and a 250 max damage instead of 246, for example.
In this case, combining the two materials with the ASC, I start at 29% on my build, and progress from there to 36, 43, 50, 57, 64, 71, 78, 85, 92, and then 93 (with 93 the maximum). If I'm lucky, I might have one "amazing" result tossed in, which allows me to reach the item maximum in9 points instead of 10. The extra point wil then go into HAM or Durability. If I'm not, I have a "good," "moderate," "failure" or even "critical failure" result in the mix, which will cause me to toss the entire thing. For the record, the swords I currently build did reach 93% (or was it 94%?) on the first 9 points, and I put the remaining point in Durability. This because a point into HAM results in perhaps 4 points (total - one each in Health and Mind, two in Action) reduction, while a point in Durabilty increases condition by around 50 points to something like 973.
Also, note that the progression listed above [36, 43, 50, 57, 64, 71, 78, 85, 92, and then 93], or even one with 1 or more "amazing" results will lead to the "perfect" sword, given the materials in question, and that the final point, as long as it is a "great" result, need not be 7% to avoid screwing anything up. However, a "great" result on the final experimentation point which yields a 1% boost may produce a better sword (perhaps a .1advantage in speed) over one with a "moderate" result with a 1% boost. It's rare, but I have seen a moderate result improve some stats while decreasing others, so in my mind, a "moderate" is just as bad as a "failure."
To summarize...
If you've followed this entire post, congratulations - you now understand the fundamental process of crafting just about anything in the game. I can't speak to the specific effects of drops or enhancement items (such as Krayt tissues), but in the case listed in the original post, that item is only one part of the entire crafting process. You should understand at this point what happened to your weapon.
As for the statement that "all master weaponsmiths are created equal," you should be able to see here why that statement is both true and false. Every single one of us has the same skills as everyone else (with a few exceptions due to skill enhancement tapes), and there is no significant difference in what we can produce. Any perceived (or even real, in Wah's case) differences due to a particular MWS's skill levels are so minute as to be completely unimportant.
However, as you yourself discovered, a MWS with access to the appropriate materials and sufficient knowledge to use the advanced components instead of regular components makes a WORLD of difference.
Oh, and one final thought - while SWGCraft.com used to be pretty much the be-all and end-all with regards to the crafting professions, they no longer show the advanced components in their item schematics. Also, unless I'm mistaken, I am not 100% sure any more that they even show ALL the schematics. Don't make the mistake of assuming that the schematics on swgcraft are the most accurate ones, or that they will lead to that uber flamethrower you want.
The way i explain this to my customers is that when i make things by hand to get a factory schematic for the best possible stats - i can take me as much as 10, 15 even 20 tries on each part - to get the best possible stats. Sometimes - i fail altogther - and get nothing - no weapon/schematic. 4 or 5 will come out very poor - like way below even a decent gun. Most will come out pretty decent but not quite great - 1 or 2 will come out close but no cigar - and then there is the last one - the keeper.
Now THIS GUY is who you should hire to make weapons for you...
If he weren't retired, and if he were on your server.
Truth be told, if you wanted aflamethrower today, I could build one for you in perhaps 10 minutes. But... it would be a crap rifle, built out of low quality materials, so what would be the point? Until I can get those 900+ quality materials (or at least 800+) for everything yourflamethrower requires (including all the advanced components), and enough of each to be able to fail 10-20 times before getting those "perfect" components that I then build in a factory run, I ain't gonna build one for you.
I went to a master weaponsmith with 5 Max 60 , -0.54 krayt tissues (i supplied the 25 units of diatium copper as well) to make a flamethrower.
The specs on the gun are here: http://home.earthlink.net/~visualvb/flamer.JPG
Breifly:
Tissues used: Max 60 , -0.54
Damage: 438-887
Speed: 4.5
Compared to my friend gun that used my other tissues I made with a different weaponsmith:
Tissues used: Max 47 , -0.4
Damage: 511-900
Speed: 4.3
why is it that my gun is so much worse but used better tissues?
this is on ahazi server btw. thx for any help.
If the first weaponsmith didn't have diatium copper, they probably hadcrappy resources for the other slots, or they had a bad experimentation on the handlers and/or final combine.
Station and tool ratings do not affect stats. My weapons have identical stats no matter which station and tool I use. Some people saythattheyreduce the chance of bad experimentation and crit fails but I haven't seen any conclusive proof of that.
Excuse Me? You're Griping about a 13 point damage difference?
Oy the number of factors that could be involved in this are tremendous, from just the luck on the experimentation end, to the specific Overall Quality and Conductivityof ALL materials used in the creation of the weapon, the specifics of the Barrels (Materials used to make them, Experimentation, Advanced or Regualr) could mean a 13 point damage difference.
And people wonder why Master Weaponsmiths are such a grumpy lot..
Hork
Master Weaponsmith
Tarquanis
ViSDarkcrest wrote:
he said he got 1 failure and 1 moderate success
a faliour and a moderate success lowers the damage a bit, i failed on a tissue yesterday.. my krayt gun ended up with +10 damage instead of +30.. **edit** happens :/