Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: DPS is worthless. Post-CU, only DPA matters
Alristico wrote:
HardwiredXMan wrote:
First, this is very good info....will help me a lot.
Second, does anyone know the impact of accuracy vs defense? Like how much of a damage bonus do you get for having higher accuracy than your targets defense.
Also, has anyone figured out the adjusted speed formula yet? What I need to know is for each point of speed gained from skill mods, how much does that decrease the weapons speed.I've found that the amount of decrease is different forweapons with different base speeds.
For example, a weapon with 2.5 base speed will decrease to 2.48 (roughly .0178 deduction using unrounded numbers)when you add 1 of speed from skill mods .....but a weapon with 2.75 base speed will decrease to only 2.74 (roughly .0196)when adding 1 point of speed from skill mods.
did your character have the same amount of speed prior to adding the +1 in both cases?
I've been trying to figure out the formula for about 3 days now. So far I've found out how to calculate the hidden decimals points (not sure how accurate they are though because, well, they're hidden...lol) however, points from skill mods don't seem to reduce the speed by a set percentage like the old system. I know about the diminishing returns and I'm pretty sure I have figured out the points at which the diminishing returns takes effect....but what I can't seem to find is what determines exactly how much 1 skill point reduces the speed when dealing with different base speeds, if that makes sense to anyone.
Anyone know something that I don't? Please share if you do
The greater your accuracy is over your opponent's, the more towards the max your base damage will be. And the greater your opponents accuracy isoveryours, the closer to the min your base damage will be.
the diminishing returns formula must be on a logarithmic scale and it might only take affect after your charater accumulates a certain amount of speed, say after 50 or 75. Or the formula might always apply starting with +1.
Well, what I did for the speed was I took my alt who had zero general melee speed and zero polearm speed. I equipped different polearms (all with different base speeds ranging from 2.06 up to 2.75). I noted the modified speed on the weapon, which my character with no speed skill mods, made the base speed and the modified speed on the weapon the exact same. Then I added +1 polearm speed CA and the modified speed would then drop a bit. Then I added another +1 to get 2 speed and noted the change of the modified speed. I have a bunch of +1 polearm speed CA's in individual clothing and a few +2's also. So it was easy to get the results for having 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 speeds instead of the the results from having 5, 10, 15, 20...etc. since profession skill mods only give you speed in +5 or more increments.
Then in order to find the speeds at higher levels (higher than 15), I would train one box in a novice profession to where I would gain say +5 speed and then use my +1 CA's again in the same manner noted above. I haven't done this for every single point of speed though, after you get so high it takes a little time to train higher level boxes. I also done this with pistols too.
I also, used my main character and equipped the exact same weapons to confirm that two different characters with the exact same speed skill mod using a weapon with the exact same speed would have the same results.....they did.
As far as the diminishing returns, yes it's true that it only takes effect after a certain amount of speed. I just haven't narrowed it down to the exactdifference yet. AT first I thought differnt damage ranges might effect the formula, but that is not the case. I've come to believe that the only factors in the speed formula (or Modified speed) is your characters speed skill mods and thespeed of the weapon.
However, I do suspect that speed diminishes at least once every7 - 8points of speed. Some of my test have shown that the first one happens at 8 speed, but it's a very very small amount. Therange of speed that is substracted for each point of speed given from skill mods / CA's stays consistant until you reach 8, then it drops off and stays consistant from there until somewhere around 14 or 15 points of speed. The next one doesn't happen until after 20, but I haven't been able to do some of the speeds between 20 - 35 because my character has gained too much speed (have 40 now) and myjedi has too much general melee and general ranged speed (from brawler and force sensitive trees). Therefore Icannot test somespeed ranges without dropping skills and I'm not gonna do that for my jedi.....I can do it with my alt....but I think i'm gonna get some guildies to help me with it.
HardwiredXMan wrote:
Alristico wrote:
HardwiredXMan wrote:
First, this is very good info....will help me a lot.
Second, does anyone know the impact of accuracy vs defense? Like how much of a damage bonus do you get for having higher accuracy than your targets defense.
Also, has anyone figured out the adjusted speed formula yet? What I need to know is for each point of speed gained from skill mods, how much does that decrease the weapons speed.I've found that the amount of decrease is different forweapons with different base speeds.
For example, a weapon with 2.5 base speed will decrease to 2.48 (roughly .0178 deduction using unrounded numbers)when you add 1 of speed from skill mods .....but a weapon with 2.75 base speed will decrease to only 2.74 (roughly .0196)when adding 1 point of speed from skill mods.
did your character have the same amount of speed prior to adding the +1 in both cases?
I've been trying to figure out the formula for about 3 days now. So far I've found out how to calculate the hidden decimals points (not sure how accurate they are though because, well, they're hidden...lol) however, points from skill mods don't seem to reduce the speed by a set percentage like the old system. I know about the diminishing returns and I'm pretty sure I have figured out the points at which the diminishing returns takes effect....but what I can't seem to find is what determines exactly how much 1 skill point reduces the speed when dealing with different base speeds, if that makes sense to anyone.
Anyone know something that I don't? Please share if you do
The greater your accuracy is over your opponent's, the more towards the max your base damage will be. And the greater your opponents accuracy isoveryours, the closer to the min your base damage will be.
the diminishing returns formula must be on a logarithmic scale and it might only take affect after your charater accumulates a certain amount of speed, say after 50 or 75. Or the formula might always apply starting with +1.
Well, what I did for the speed was I took my alt who had zero general melee speed and zero polearm speed. I equipped different polearms (all with different base speeds ranging from 2.06 up to 2.75). I noted the modified speed on the weapon, which my character with no speed skill mods, made the base speed and the modified speed on the weapon the exact same. Then I added +1 polearm speed CA and the modified speed would then drop a bit. Then I added another +1 to get 2 speed and noted the change of the modified speed. I have a bunch of +1 polearm speed CA's in individual clothing and a few +2's also. So it was easy to get the results for having 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 speeds instead of the the results from having 5, 10, 15, 20...etc. since profession skill mods only give you speed in +5 or more increments.
Then in order to find the speeds at higher levels (higher than 15), I would train one box in a novice profession to where I would gain say +5 speed and then use my +1 CA's again in the same manner noted above. I haven't done this for every single point of speed though, after you get so high it takes a little time to train higher level boxes. I also done this with pistols too.
I also, used my main character and equipped the exact same weapons to confirm that two different characters with the exact same speed skill mod using a weapon with the exact same speed would have the same results.....they did.
As far as the diminishing returns, yes it's true that it only takes effect after a certain amount of speed. I just haven't narrowed it down to the exactdifference yet. AT first I thought differnt damage ranges might effect the formula, but that is not the case. I've come to believe that the only factors in the speed formula (or Modified speed) is your characters speed skill mods and thespeed of the weapon.
However, I do suspect that speed diminishes at least once every7 - 8points of speed. Some of my test have shown that the first one happens at 8 speed, but it's a very very small amount. Therange of speed that is substracted for each point of speed given from skill mods / CA's stays consistant until you reach 8, then it drops off and stays consistant from there until somewhere around 14 or 15 points of speed. The next one doesn't happen until after 20, but I haven't been able to do some of the speeds between 20 - 35 because my character has gained too much speed (have 40 now) and myjedi has too much general melee and general ranged speed (from brawler and force sensitive trees). Therefore Icannot test somespeed ranges without dropping skills and I'm not gonna do that for my jedi.....I can do it with my alt....but I think i'm gonna get some guildies to help me with it.
Now about the accuracy vs defense, I already know that the higher your accuracy is over you targets defense, the closer to the max damage of your weapon you do....but what I wanted to know is once your accuracy is high enough and your hitting at your max damage range on the weapon, how much more bonus do you get for each point of accuracy above that?
Say my speed range is 100 - 200......then assume my accuracy is a lot higher than my targets defense to where I would hit for 200 average damage. Now if I increase my accuracy even more, how much increase in damage will each point of accuracy give me. I recall the devs saying that you get a percentage bonus of damage the higher your accuracy over your targets defense is. That would explain in PVE why a mob with a higher CL hit's you for massive damage....because it's accuracy it likely twice your defense or more.
Basically my goal is to find the speed formula for modified speed on weapons and find the point at which accuracy is worth having over speed or damage. Then I can determine how I should start crafting my weapons for maximum potential based on my customers skill mods instead of going by the general belief of DPS, DPA, speed, max damage is better. If I can find out when it's useless to add more speed and accuracy, then I can focus on improving other areas of my weapons. I've already figured out that at 107 speed, my jedi will not need any more speed because it's just not doing anything that I can noticeably see. My pistoleer has 69 speed and when I hit 62 speed, I started noticing (in my testing) that it took more and more speed before It changed my DPS or modfied weapon speed.
Anyway, was wondering if there is anyone else out there doing testing and trying to find out the same things that i'm looking for. THe most important one to me is the speed formula because it can be the major difference in whether I put more experiment points in speed, damage or efficiency.
man I really wish there was a test server with a frog up right now, this testing would be a whole lot easier.
sounds like the logarithmhas a miniscule affect on the initial speed mods. You can probably figure out what the equation is if you plot the curve on a graph being sure to plot each point where the there is a diminished return. You wouldn't need every data point, you could just have a few from the beggining when you start adding speed mods and a few from the other end where you are adding speed mods to a already stacked character. Infact you can probably enter the data points into a graphing calculator and it may come up with the equation and what the whole graph looks like. lol don't ask me how, high school was a long time ago.
about the accuracy, I would aslo be curious as to how much of a damage increase there is when your accuracy goes over a certain amount. Though I do know that if I shoot a very low level mob (around starting cities) with regular default ranged shot (which has no damage modifiers) I will do the exact amount of damage that is listed as the max damage on the weapon. So theres a chance that there might be no increase above max dmg since my character has very high accuracy (300) compared to the gorg/rill which probably has none.