Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Hard Data on Weapon Repair
Dodece
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:04 am
#14
I agree with you on the tusken rifle being kinetic. Everyone knows that. I still have one of those I had it in a droid in a container in a droid so thats probabally how it slipped past the general nerf of the gun. Though I can conceive of no reason the devs would have to lie about it or lie about nerfing weapons repair. At some point any one of these people might have seen an error in the code and repaired it. Without even telling anyone else. Lets look at it logically they put in a patch for droids. That was seven right. They needed to put in more code for subcomponents. One of these codes had a adverse affect on our weapons repair. Maybe the game is reading weapons repair tools as generic items like molecular clamps or survey devices. We have seen how one little code slip and things can get whacked and they had no intention of doing it. I remember the night everyone could only log on testcenter, or after the mount patch was put in and people warped to the center of the map. In a nutshell they could have simply fixed something or accidentally broke something. If they are being a little shady after they found out who could blame them.
For all we know they might intend to fix the repair rate, but do not want to tell us for obvious reasons. Everytime they give us a headsup we say thanks, and promptly start to plan ahead. They told us that creature handler was getting a nerf the CHs went to the krayt graveyard and ran their pets into the ground getting tissue that would soon be very hard to get. They told us that an exploit was going to be fixed we burned rubber to do that exploit. Telling us somethings is a generally bad idea. Odds are if the weapon repair gets reworked it will come in silently with no notice. So that people do not have twenty near depleted scatters in a bank box waiting for the system to return to as it was.
One last thing not careing about the weapon repair rate is not a sign that you do not care about the quality of your weapons. Somehow loseing 300 condition points over the lifetime of a gun is not a big thing. So the gun will break down a day earlier. I repair the weapons I make free of charge, and I charge a token amount for repairs. If you made high quality weapons in the first place and intend to continue to do so then what is the big deal. The big deal is you used a huge loot and got a fantastic slice, and want to see that person have that gun for months on end. If you want the gun to last longer simply put a couple points on that durability.
The fact that this is such a big thing to anyone means that someone is loseing something they cherished way too freaking much. Something they probabally abused, or helped someone else to abuse. Also do not tell me people did not make a ton of money off these repairs. Even someone who is not out looking for it still might have made 50 or 60 k off it in a week. I think thats why alot of people are mad, because they lost a cheap cash cow.
sabacc1000
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:41 am
#15
Dodece wrote:
I agree with you on the tusken rifle being kinetic. Everyone knows that. I still have one of those I had it in a droid in a container in a droid so thats probabally how it slipped past the general nerf of the gun. Though I can conceive of no reason the devs would have to lie about it or lie about nerfing weapons repair. At some point any one of these people might have seen an error in the code and repaired it. Without even telling anyone else. Lets look at it logically they put in a patch for droids. That was seven right. They needed to put in more code for subcomponents. One of these codes had a adverse affect on our weapons repair. Maybe the game is reading weapons repair tools as generic items like molecular clamps or survey devices. We have seen how one little code slip and things can get whacked and they had no intention of doing it. I remember the night everyone could only log on testcenter, or after the mount patch was put in and people warped to the center of the map. In a nutshell they could have simply fixed something or accidentally broke something. If they are being a little shady after they found out who could blame them.
Once again, I think you're missing the point here. Feel free to call me arrogant and superior, but from what I've seen, the WS community seems to be much more accepting of problems, and understanding of the development process than most (like, say...jedi). If they said to us today, "Oops...we'll fix it but we don't have a timeframe for you," or " Yeah, that's the way it's supposed to be. Sorry we didn't give you a heads up when we fixed it," there wouldn't be an outcry against the incompetence, or any mass movement to just be generally annoying. Most of use would just say ok, and that'd be the end of it. We'd know that they know, and we'd know how it is intended to be. I, for one, would be happy with any acknowledgement that they know about the change. If that were the cause of some errant string of code, or an undocumented fix, so be it. The problem is that no such statement has ever been made. Bottom line: we know something changed, and they either don't know or for some reason refuse to admit it. That's unacceptable.
For all we know they might intend to fix the repair rate, but do not want to tell us for obvious reasons. Everytime they give us a headsup we say thanks, and promptly start to plan ahead. They told us that creature handler was getting a nerf the CHs went to the krayt graveyard and ran their pets into the ground getting tissue that would soon be very hard to get. They told us that an exploit was going to be fixed we burned rubber to do that exploit. Telling us somethings is a generally bad idea. Odds are if the weapon repair gets reworked it will come in silently with no notice. So that people do not have twenty near depleted scatters in a bank box waiting for the system to return to as it was.
What possible advantage could there be to this? We could rush out and...do a bunch of crappy repairs? If it were an incoming nerf, this argument may hold water, but as it is, there is no reason for them to withhold information for the reasons you give. On top of which, past experience has given us no reason to believe that they wish to withhold such information. If anything, they've been painfully forthcoming in order to make a better product, often with the full knowledge that there would be a mass of flames against them for it. If they're willing to tell people about nerfs ahead of time, there's no reason to believe that they'd withhold information about fixing this issue.
One last thing not careing about the weapon repair rate is not a sign that you do not care about the quality of your weapons. Somehow loseing 300 condition points over the lifetime of a gun is not a big thing. So the gun will break down a day earlier. I repair the weapons I make free of charge, and I charge a token amount for repairs. If you made high quality weapons in the first place and intend to continue to do so then what is the big deal. The big deal is you used a huge loot and got a fantastic slice, and want to see that person have that gun for months on end. If you want the gun to last longer simply put a couple points on that durability.
The fact that this is such a big thing to anyone means that someone is loseing something they cherished way too freaking much. Something they probabally abused, or helped someone else to abuse. Also do not tell me people did not make a ton of money off these repairs. Even someone who is not out looking for it still might have made 50 or 60 k off it in a week. I think thats why alot of people are mad, because they lost a cheap cash cow.
I have never charged for repair, and only ask for a tip if someone insists on paying. It's something i would do as a courtesy...as a service, under the impression that as a WS, I would have a better chance to help someone keep their weapon a bit longer. I also know many fellow weaponsmiths who feel the same way. So to say that the only people who care about this issue are those who made money off it is just plain wrong. In fact, if money was the only important point, then it would be much better for us if every repair broke the weapon. After all, that'd mean a better turnover. Also, if you refer to my original post, I advocated a more complex repair system, in which the "huge loot" weapon you referred to would have a much worse repair rate than a standard, more reliable weapon. I'd be more than happy to debate the pros and cons, and to have the community flesh out a new repair system as an "in concept" idea, but such a debate is moot unless we can actually get the devs to admit there's a problem in the first place.
Once again, you're coupling the desire to get feedback on a known issue with a judgement call on the issue. You're assuming that just because some of us are unhappy with the lack of attention being paid to a well know, and reasonably well documented problem, that we must want it to return to how it was before the issue arose. That's simply not true. But before we can discuss which of the two systems (or perhaps an entirely new one) is better for the game....we need acknowledgement.
sabacc1000
Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:44 am
#16
Gyopi wrote:
sabacc1000 wrote:
Nothing changed with the success rates for repair kits.
A 25 sample set, split between different tool qualities and tailor skill levels is way, way too small a data set for this type of statistical analysis. The randomization chances throw too much noise into the test. You would need at least 100 samples per test case to have a reasonable chance of showing statistical trends. When analyzing these types of situations I prefer tests with several thousand samples myself. Thanks for the info though.
You have good data in your post, but as the tailor who did the experiment which was referred to above (now a master weaponsmith too!), this has to be one of the worst excuses I have seen! First of all, it was at least 50 (now I am trying to remember if it was 100) items and was done before and after publish 7. The change in success rates was very very clear and the statistics were quite good. To say that you have to have several thousand samples to get good data sounds like an excuse to make checking for these changes impossible.
Was this directed against me? If so, it'd help to read more than just the colored text. What you quoted was a developer response on the issue, not my personal opinion and was the prompting for the study in the first place.
If not, I apologize, but that's how it reads.
Gyopi
Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:04 pm
#17
sabacc1000 wrote:
Was this directed against me? If so, it'd help to read more than just the colored text. What you quoted was a developer response on the issue, not my personal opinion and was the prompting for the study in the first place.
If not, I apologize, but that's how it reads.
Oops. That was my fault. It was not directed towards you, but towards the person who you quoted from. I probably should not have cut as much or removed your name from the top, but I didn't Sorry about that. 
As I said, the rest of the post (your part) was really good!
As I said, the rest of the post (your part) was really good!
Gron_DM
Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:06 pm
#18
i try to be positive but this issue by far is one of the worst things in game that has been changed and not documented, it heavily affects several markets/economys all at once and the devs have yet to acknowledge this has happend. I hope they will come out and say something about this...and not mention JTL in the same paragraph.
LLJK_Griz
Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:43 pm
#19
Dodece wrote:
The fact that this is such a big thing to anyone means that someone is loseing something they cherished way too freaking much. Something they probabally abused, or helped someone else to abuse.
Who cares what they do with their weapons? They paid huge amounts for them with the expectation that they would last a reasonable amount of time, then suddenly their weapon's useful life is significantly shortened because of whatappears tobe a bug that the devs refuse to acknowledge or fix.
If they changed repair to make all the multi-slice exploited weapons and old scatters/FWG5s go away faster, that is a valid reason and they should have told us. The people who complain about everything would still complain, but most would accept it because it is a reasonable explanation. The players should not have to discover major changes to the game mechanics themselves, and the devs should not say "working as intended" when something has obviously been changed.
Dodece
Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:54 pm
#20
How does this fall under the lines of major freaking problem. You want to talk about honesty. Some professions out there are still bugged horribly bugged, or horribly inbalanced. If this is a bug or a neuter its a insignifigant one at that. What advantage would their be to knowing about such a nerf or unerfing of repairs.
Here in black and white I got a krayt scatter perfect sliced. It is down to 50 points condition. Obviously I should get it fixed suddenly I hear in a couple weeks the repair system will be made better. Well I think I will just keep that in storage till then. Everytime something is going to get nerfed or overhauled it has an effect. From generateing hordeing to outright exploiting. By the way we do have a way to get headsup its called test center.
I will just ask one little question, and I want you guys to come up with the answer. Why is it so danged important that everytime you repair a weapon it should go back to perfect. Weapons were designed to decay. To make it so that an economy keeps cycling. To make it so that no one player might sit on a legendary scatter pistol, and be in permanent god mode. Also I want to hear the guys who have been crying like babies on this what is the token amount you charge for repairing a weapon. I charge a thousand just because it takes my time. Even at that I make 30 k a week just walking around.
Maybe the reason they do not come down off the dev mountain top and deliver onto us all the details of what they fixed changed or altered at a moments notice. Is because this is insignifigant. No where did they say they would come to us and comment on every little change they would or would not make. They have the responsibility to keep this game balanced as they see fit. If it takes doing a small thing that ticks you off. If it is overall good for the rest of the community. Then you better wipe the tears off your face. They have altered programs and codes in this game with no more then an acknowledgement that it was discarded removed or deleted.
Here is a little juicy tidbit for you guys. The devs rearranged the crystal system for jedi. Crystals are more likely to be found in treasure chests. Treasure chests are on encoded disks. That means you cannot run an illegal macro and just discard the everything except crystal. You have to decode every disk. To find the treasure map ones. Over the past five days i have gotten five force crystals out of treasure chests. Yeah they seem to be dropping a heck of alot faster too.
Did they tell us no, and god bless them for that. You deserve answers. I suppose the afk criminal combat macroers should be given the answers too. They decided to change it or not to change it back. Their call live with it.
LLJK_Griz
Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:12 pm
#21
So you have no problem with the devs repeatedly withholding information for no reason whatsoever and then blatantly lying to players when confronted?
I am paying for this game, I have a right to know what the hell they're doing. It is completely unacceptable when people like sabacc1000 spend dozens of hours compiling data and then being completely ignored by devs, when they should not even have to compile all that data in the first place. Censorship and lies are no way to run a game.
Taco_Panocea
Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:41 pm
#22
Weapon reapir is not broken, It is intentional it doesnt work as it should be. Devs are trying to get rid of the pre nerf weapons.
Dodece
Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:43 pm
#23
Who the hell made them compile the data in the first place its their choice. Second they can lie as much as they want to. If it serves the greater good. Look at it this way they did not go out and say hey we utterly nerfed the hell out of weapons repair because we want to syphon exploit and super weapons out of the game. The weaponsmiths cannot perfect repair your guns now how you like that.
Hmmm sounds like they were actually protecting us when you say it that way. By lieing and saying nothing happened. We did not lose a perceived bonus. Infact most players are unaware thatour proficency took a nose dive. They would not have to lie if people like you and the original poster did not go fanatical about the change in the first place. Introduce honesty into the system are you mad.
Hey huge ugly sig get a freaking life. Go watch fox news you arent going to scream me down with this inane I need to be told everything every moment. If you do not like how they are running the game leave quit. Take your fifteen bucks elsewhere. I think thats a step to makeing the game better. Getting rid of self centered little egotists like you. Who cannot see anything else but what they want. I applaud them for not being pistol whiped on a few things. Too much in the game got messed up, because they allowed themselves to be browbeaten into submission. To the detrement of the game I might add.
It is about time they said enough is enough and started slapping on the reingns and bringing the game back into line with balance and fairness. Which chased so many players off months ago.
LLJK_Griz
Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:04 pm
#24
Dodece wrote:
Who the hell made them compile the data in the first place its their choice. Second they can lie as much as they want to. If it serves the greater good. Look at it this way they did not go out and say hey we utterly nerfed the hell out of weapons repair because we want to syphon exploit and super weapons out of the game. The weaponsmiths cannot perfect repair your guns now how you like that.
If they wanted to prevent people from repairing everything before the patch, they should have not mentioned anything until after the patch was already in. Now it's 2-3 months after the patch, and we still don't know whether it's intentional or bugged. This is unacceptable, and there is no reason to continue lying about it when it's already been done.
Dodece
Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:36 pm
#25
Its unacceptable like your the judge of that. Who made the huge ugly sig god jury and executioner. No point whats the point of saying that it is. It dosent change anything it is what it is.
The facts are this they system changed for whatever reason nobody knows. The devs either like the changes or are entirely unaware of them. The changes may have been intentional or not. They did not come down here and rub it in our face. They said nothing about it. Its the weaponsmiths causeing all the complaining and ill will. If they are uttlerly ignorant I can conceive they have better things to do then worry about weapons repair. If it is intentional then its probabally done for a good reason. Everyone of us lies. We lie to save face to protect someone or something, or to change things to our advantage.
If conceeding to a lie prevents the lie from serveing its purpose then its self defeating. If they want to get rid of these weapons in the game without dropping hardcaps on everything, or removeing all weapons data. Then its in their interest to expediate their disappearance. If not makeing weapon repair issues a prevalant fact means players continue to burn through pre nerf weapons and exploit weapons then the lie serves a purpose.
We can look at their alternatives and see that this might actually be the best solution. They could remove item repair from the game entirely, but this removes a useful skill that many novice masters just might need to get along. If they come out and say that weapons repair will be severely nerfed. Well people will continue to stockpile the weapons they want to get rid of in the first place. If they hardcap weapons so as to eliminate exploit weapons. They alienate the crafters that work extra hard to make the best. A novice comeing close to what a established smith might do decreases the value of a great smith. Not to mention smugglers would have a problem with haveing their skills so curtailed. A novice doing what a master could do. If it is intentional I think they made the right call. Getting rid of exploit weapons is a good thing. Decreaseing the volume of super weapons is a good thing. Now which would you prefer capped weapons no weapon repair, or something equally dramatic? No I would not think so a little lie helping to get rid of most of these weapons as painlessly as possible yeah that sounds like a reasonable solution to me. Nobody gets terribly hurt by it. People that got the super weapons. Maybe by no fault of their own still get to have the joy of those weapons. Even if it is for a shorter time. The guns lifespan gets shortened, and occassionaly guns get blown up. Ever so slowly the weapons that hurt gameplay will disappear.
The point is if it is a lie comeing out and admitting to it being a lie defeats the reason they would have made such changes in the first place. People would simply have locked up high powered weapons to sell later. With the expectation that a one million credit gun might go for as much as ten million credits later. These exploit weapons might have ended up being in the game till the game ceased to be. Yeah I am sure some will still be floating around a year from now. but there will be less of them, and people useing them will stick out like a sore thumb. Makeing it easier for the csrs to pick them out. Especially with the speed formula rework. Hmm that riflemen is useing a t21 and fireing once a second.
If it is a lie its definately not one that is hurting people very badly, and if it smarts the ego. Then you said it yourself weaponsmiths can be very understanding. If in the end it serves to benefit our role in the galaxy. Then who are we to really complain as loud as we are. Every profession in the game has had a skill curtailed at one point, because it was too powerful or too abused. The fact that they did not come out and say ours was almost completely wiped out. Actually goes in our favor like I said most players have no clue that our nerf is so total. So the devs did not steal our ability to make money with weapon repair, or the ability to repair weapons. That sounds like kid gloves to me.
LLJK_Griz
Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:50 pm
#26
removed at request of thread starter. this discussion is over.
Message Edited by LLJK_Griz on 06-21-2004 10:55 PM