Weaponsmith Archive

Here's some more thoughts for discussion...

I am able to make two flavors of plasma flamethrower...

The first has a base DPS of 307, and an SAC cost of 136.

The second has a base DPS of around 270, and an SAC cost of 100. (the SAC cap for heavy weapons)

They have similar min/max damage, but the speed on the 2nd one is roughly 0.3 seconds slower. (I'm going from memory right now, so bear with me.)

The damage done with either weapon will be similar for the suite of specials for any given user because the min/max damage stats are the same. The only differentiation is the action cost and the frequency of the hits. Presumably the 1st one will fire more often within a given time period because of its lower speed. Furthermore, the cooldown times of it's specials will be lower than the other one. (This is no longer up for debate... the cooldown time is directly related to the mod weapon speed with a multiplier thrown in. It is *NOT* a true fixed timer that ignores weapon speed. I'll post more specific numbers when I have a chance.)

Now, this is where powerups come into play.

A knowledgeable and well-equipped (resources/attachments) artisan can produce a powerup which can roughly add 20ish percent to a good stat and diminish the effect of the "bad" stat effect to nearly nil.

I.E.

+20% damage, tiny negative modifier on speed
+20% speed, tiny negative modifier on accuracy
-20% action cost, tiny negative modifier on accuracy

For this analysis, we're going to disregard the damage powerup since it has practically the same effect on both weapons.

And for the sake of argument I'm going to assume that the base speed of the first flamer is 2.5 and the second one is 2.8.

The speed pup on the first flamer reduces it by .5 to 2.0.
The speed pup on the second flamer reduces it by .56 to 2.24.

The action pup on the first flamer reduces it by ~27 to 109.
The action pup on the second flamer reduces it by 20 to 80.

With damage remaining equal, the four possible combination of flamers with these pups is:

1) Speed 2.0, SAC 136 (F1,spd)
2) Speed 2.24 SAC 100 (F2,spd)
3) Speed 2.5, SAC 109 (F1,AC)
4) Speed 2.8, SAC 80 (F2,AC)

If you're using a plasma flamer, you obviously have some speed mods from being master commando, so the modded speeds will be reduced further from the new pupped base speeds. At this time, I don't know if anyone fully understands the equations that govern how speed mods affect the firing rate. But it's a safe assumption that the differences in mod speed for each of the four flamers will be much less.. maybe something along the lines of..

1) ModSpd 1.5
2) ModSpd 1.6
3) ModSpd 1.7
4) ModSpd 1.8

Yes, I know these are highly contrived, but the principal of diminishing returns still holds true, even in this arbitrary example.

Anyways, the final point is this... high level combat players will in all likelihood have some very significant speed mods, such that their modded weapon speeds will tend to blur together for weapons that may have more significant apparent differences in base speed. Few people will ever notice a .2 second discrepancy in the cooldown times of repeated specials over the course of a typical combat (though I hear fighting self-healing jedi can take considerably longer). If this generic customer often finds themselves draining their action bar, options 2, 3, and 4 are all viable alternatives. So both a high DPS and low DPS weapon have uses in the right situation under the right circumstances.

The important questions to be asking are...

1) What kind of speed mods does the customer have based off of his/her profession and any additional mods?

2) Is the customer willing to use powerups to maximize their performance?

3) What is the typical duration of combat for the customer, and how often do they find themselves draining their action bar?

4) Does the customer use doctor/chef/smuggler solutions to increase their action bar regeneration rate?

These four questions are all inter-related in determining what the "best" weapon to use is. There is a place for high DPS, low DPS, high damage, lower damage, high speed, lower speed, high SAC, lower SAC weapons, but it is very much dependent upon determining the answer to the above questions.

Also note that the min/max damage stats add an additional level of complexity not even examined here, but the assumption is that it is best to focus on damage in the final weapon assembly.

Weaponsmithing is a *lot* more complicated than many people realize.

---

Amizar wrote:
Here's some more thoughts for discussion...

I am able to make two flavors of plasma flamethrower...

The first has a base DPS of 307, and an SAC cost of 136.

The second has a base DPS of around 270, and an SAC cost of 100. (the SAC cap for heavy weapons)

They have similar min/max damage, but the speed on the 2nd one is roughly 0.3 seconds slower. (I'm going from memory right now, so bear with me.)

The damage done with either weapon will be similar for the suite of specials for any given user because the min/max damage stats are the same. The only differentiation is the action cost and the frequency of the hits. Presumably the 1st one will fire more often within a given time period because of its lower speed. Furthermore, the cooldown times of it's specials will be lower than the other one. (This is no longer up for debate... the cooldown time is directly related to the mod weapon speed with a multiplier thrown in. It is *NOT* a true fixed timer that ignores weapon speed. I'll post more specific numbers when I have a chance.)

Now, this is where powerups come into play.

A knowledgeable and well-equipped (resources/attachments) artisan can produce a powerup which can roughly add 20ish percent to a good stat and diminish the effect of the "bad" stat effect to nearly nil.

I.E.

+20% damage, tiny negative modifier on speed
+20% speed, tiny negative modifier on accuracy
-20% action cost, tiny negative modifier on accuracy

For this analysis, we're going to disregard the damage powerup since it has practically the same effect on both weapons.

And for the sake of argument I'm going to assume that the base speed of the first flamer is 2.5 and the second one is 2.8.

The speed pup on the first flamer reduces it by .5 to 2.0.
The speed pup on the second flamer reduces it by .56 to 2.24.

The action pup on the first flamer reduces it by ~27 to 109.
The action pup on the second flamer reduces it by 20 to 80.

With damage remaining equal, the four possible combination of flamers with these pups is:

1) Speed 2.0, SAC 136 (F1,spd)
2) Speed 2.24 SAC 100 (F2,spd)
3) Speed 2.5, SAC 109 (F1,AC)
4) Speed 2.8, SAC 80 (F2,AC)

If you're using a plasma flamer, you obviously have some speed mods from being master commando, so the modded speeds will be reduced further from the new pupped base speeds. At this time, I don't know if anyone fully understands the equations that govern how speed mods affect the firing rate. But it's a safe assumption that the differences in mod speed for each of the four flamers will be much less.. maybe something along the lines of..

1) ModSpd 1.5
2) ModSpd 1.6
3) ModSpd 1.7
4) ModSpd 1.8

Yes, I know these are highly contrived, but the principal of diminishing returns still holds true, even in this arbitrary example.

Anyways, the final point is this... high level combat players will in all likelihood have some very significant speed mods, such that their modded weapon speeds will tend to blur together for weapons that may have more significant apparent differences in base speed. Few people will ever notice a .2 second discrepancy in the cooldown times of repeated specials over the course of a typical combat (though I hear fighting self-healing jedi can take considerably longer). If this generic customer often finds themselves draining their action bar, options 2, 3, and 4 are all viable alternatives. So both a high DPS and low DPS weapon have uses in the right situation under the right circumstances.

The important questions to be asking are...

1) What kind of speed mods does the customer have based off of his/her profession and any additional mods?

2) Is the customer willing to use powerups to maximize their performance?

3) What is the typical duration of combat for the customer, and how often do they find themselves draining their action bar?

4) Does the customer use doctor/chef/smuggler solutions to increase their action bar regeneration rate?

These four questions are all inter-related in determining what the "best" weapon to use is. There is a place for high DPS, low DPS, high damage, lower damage, high speed, lower speed, high SAC, lower SAC weapons, but it is very much dependent upon determining the answer to the above questions.

Also note that the min/max damage stats add an additional level of complexity not even examined here, but the assumption is that it is best to focus on damage in the final weapon assembly.

Weaponsmithing is a *lot* more complicated than many people realize.

---

wait a minute, there are heavy weapon pups now?

I dump speed and maybe 1 point in to damage into the barrel, then mostly damage and maybe 1 or 2 points into speed on the PH- I've been getting good results on finished weapons this way with experimenting mostly into damage since most of hte pistols comes out lower than 2.0 and rifles/carbines lower than 2.5.