Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Logix serious danger with new system they are looking to implement in Publish 7
JaatoWaals wrote:
Here's my understanding of how it works:
Currently, depending on the quality of your resources, there is a 'cap' to which you can experiment. The cap is roughly .1% times the quality of your resources- so if you have 1000 quality resources you can experiment to 100%. On the other hand, if you have 500 quality resources you can experiment up to 50%. That aspect of the system remains the same.
When you first start experimenting, you start with a base value that is also dependant on the quality of your resources. That amount is roughly .03 times the quality of your resources (this is an approximation, the actual equation seems slightly more complicated). So if you have 1000 quality resources you start with a base value of roughly 30%. If you have 500 quality resources you start with a base value of roughly 15%.
When you experiment you spend experiment points. When you spend each point you get an additional percentage on top of the starting percentage.Currently, that amount is roughly 7%. Thus, if you are using 1000 quality resources you need to spend 10 experimentation points to hit the cap (100%). On the other hand, if you're using 500 quality resources you can hit the cap by spending roughly 5 experimentation points (which will hit the 50% cap).
The general theory is that the amount that you get from each experimentation point is based on the absolute maximum one could experiment the statistic to (100%) minus the highest value possible for the base value (30%) divided by the number of experiment points you have at master (10). That equates to around 7% per point.
The way the new system (or the old one that was on TC) works is that rather than being a fixed value (7%), it will be dependant on the resource quality.So if you are using 1000 quality resources, the amount you get from each point would remain the same- 7%. On the other hand, if you're using 500 quality resources, the amount you'll get from each point would be 3.5%.
Thus, rather than all experimentation points producing a 7% boost, each point will provide a bonus from 0% to 7% dependant on resource quality. Given that the maximum reasonable quality for most complicated items is around 8-900, or even lower if the item requires named resources (especially those with gated attributes), the practical result is that each point spent will provide a bonus from 0% - 5% or 6%.
The result is, rather than needing only 5 experimentation points to hit the cap for a giving attribute, you'll need 10. That means that rather than having 5 points left over after maxing out an attribute you'll have zero. While this won't make any difference for single-attribute items (such as crafting tools or powerups), it'll make a huge difference for products that have two or more attribute that can be experimented on- such as damage, speed and HAM for weapons. Rather than being able to put some points in damage and some points in HAM, crafters will be force to choose one or the other. The result is that all crafted items will be of lower quality.
Learn to use dev tracker. TH already posted in that 9 page thread saying that they're having meetings on how to fix the crate issue, what more do you want?
nightrun55 wrote:
How can the Dev's just ignore all these issues with pre-nerf crates and some of this other stuff.. Either they don't know its going on, or they don't have the courage to come in here and answer some tough questions.
Message Edited by LLJK_Griz on 02-21-2004 12:03 PM
Before I get started, I'll say that I completely disagree with changing something this deep in the crafting system. Looking at the track record for these kinds of changes, I foresee a completely broken system if they start messing around with the guts of the game. I think the current crafting system is pretty darn enjoyable the way it is.
But I disagree with the Armorsmith Correspondents assessment that "all crafted items will be of lower quality" and so I have to lay out my thoughts. I'm only a novice weaponsmith, but I'm a master artisan and architect so I have some crafting experience. Let's assume that the Armorsmith is correct in his interpretation of how the proposed crafting system will work. What I'm going to do is lay out a series of scenarios with different variables forresource quality and crafter level.
For simplicities sake, I'm going to use nice round numbers and fake schematics that will simulate the results in the actual system. I'm also going to assume for simplicity that both crafters use their experimentation points in groups of five. the variables will be:
Resource Quality
----------------
Metal A: 500 CD, 500 OQ
Metal B: 500 CD, 1000 OQ
Metal C: 1000 CD, 1000 OQ
Crafter Level
-------------
Novice crafter: 5 experimentation points
Master crafter: 10 experimentation points
Schematic
---------
Pistol that requires metal
Experimentation on Damage: 100% CD
Experimentation on HAM Costs: 100% OQ
As I said, this is all purely fictional, but it should sufficiently demonstrate the proposed changes. I'll run the numbers through both systems and we can compare both how masters compare to non-masters in the old and new system and how the results change for everyone after the change. We'll look at which stats they can experiment on and to what level they can experiment.
Current System - Experimentation results do not rely on material quality
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Metal A
Novice
50% damage OR 50% HAM
Master
50% damage AND 50% HAM
Metal B
Novice
50% damage OR 50% HAM
Master
50% damage AND 50% HAM
or
100% HAM
Metal C
Novice
50% damage OR 50% HAM
Master
100% Damage
or
50% Damage and 50% HAM
or
100% HAM
Proposed System - Experimentation results are cut in half on qualities of 500
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Metal A
Novice
25% damage OR 25% HAM
Master
50% damage
or
25% damage AND 25% HAM
or
50% HAM
Metal B
Novice
25% damage OR 50% HAM
Master
50% damage
or
25% damage AND 50% HAM
or
100% HAM
Metal C
Novice
50% damage OR 50% HAM
Master
100% Damage
or
50% Damage and 50% HAM
or
100% HAM
Let's look at how things turned out. In the current system, regardless of the materials, the master is able to get twice the results of a novice. The master has more options, he can choose based on the quality of the material how he wants to spend his points. The novice can only choose to experiment in one area or the other.
In the proposed system, we see both the and master novice take a huge hit when using substandard materials. It's only when they use the highest quality materials that they're able to create an item that's equal to what they're creating now. So the proposed system wouldn't lower the possible quality of items, it just means that they'll be rarer due to the quality resources they'd require. Currently we're dealing with a linear system. The proposed system would skew it so thatfinal quality becomes logarithmic with material quality. While this probably hurts everyone, especially during a resource drought, I think it hurts novices the most.
I do think the proposed system will cause a problem in that there will be little to distinguish your products from everybody else. Everyone on a server has the same materials to work with, and not many crafters would choose to put experimentation points into an area that had worse possible results than another area. If putting 10 experimentation point into damage is only going to get you to 50% while the same points into HAM would get you to 100%, which would you put the 10 into? It's almost removing crafter preference from the crafting process and making the system solely dependent on resource availability.
Do I agree with chaning the crafting system? No, I think it's just right as it is. But I also don't think a change like this would lower quality across the board.
Message Edited by BoberFett on 02-21-2004 06:14 PM
Rather than being able to put some points in damage and some points in HAM, crafters will be force to choose one or the other. The result is that all crafted items will be of lower quality.
