Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Signature schematics an idea for encouraging cooperation between weaponsmiths
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p4Samwise
Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:31 am
#1
Back in the olden days, we had schematic loss, forcing master smiths to buy components from novice smiths. This forced cooperation between masters and novices, but it was annoying because it was such a huge gating factor for the masters. By contrast, the current system DISCOURAGES cooperation between masters and novices, because the master's work suffers if he/she involves a novice in the process - any subcomponent crafted by a novice will hurt the final product. This is counter to the whole theory of an "apprentice" system, in which a novice can help a master by performing simple tasks.
My suggestion:allow each individual weaponsmith to "specialize" in certain schematics. I'm calling them "signature schematics". Suppose for the sake of discussion that each smith, regardless of level, gets one signature schematic. When crafting your "signature schematic", you effectively get maxed experimentation and assembly points, meaning that all other things being equal, you can make the best possible item of that type. Some weaponsmiths, therefore, might get a reputation for exceptionally fine laser rifles, while others might get reputations for their unparalleled two-handed cleavers.
That in and of itself encourages weaponsmiths to go into business together, with one smith providing one type of weapon, another smith providing another. But there's another layer to this. If one weaponsmith chooses a subcomponent as his/her "signature schematic", the bonuses gained from that subcomponent then "stack" with the bonuses that another smith gets when using that subcomponent to craft his/her own signature weapon.
Hence, novice smiths, who aren't able to craft the really cool guns yet, could make their living by specializing in subcomponents and selling them to masters. Since the novice smiths are specializing in subcomponents exclusively, thePARTSthey make are as good as those made by the masters (but not the final products, most likely- don't worry, the novices aren't a competitive threat!), and the masters have an incentive to buy from the novices. Presto - a true "apprentice" system, and a more complex economy.
For the novice/master system to work out as I've described, the novices should be able to "graduate" from subcomponent specialization into end-product specialization. Hence, I suggest that each time a crafter gets a new skill box, he/she gets to pick a new signature schematic.
I have to go now. Discuss amongst yourselves.
[edit]WOOO a one star! I WIN! 
Message Edited by p4Samwise on 02-18-2004 04:54 PM
Fenrix
Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:32 am
#2
Its nota bad idea, but surely A master should always be better than a novice. I could see merit with 2 Masters specialising in different items
Tortilla
Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:33 am
#3
bad idea. as a master i should be able to craft the best components and weapons.
Jedi_Titus
Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:38 am
#4
not a bad idea. It would need to be fleshed out more to be workable, but in principle I really like it.
I seea couple problems right off:
1. if there is the ability to change your "signature weapon" without extreme difficulty them many smiths will simply make one signature weapon then change their choise and make the next weapon as another signature weapon...rinse, repeat till ALL their weapons are the super dooper signature weapons...
2. If you can choose a component the general balance of the game could be thrown off with multiple additional bonuses stacking to make insanely powerful weapons.
The only way I see this as working would be you could only pick a final weapon, not components, and once you chose that's it you can't change it. I'd put it as a "super" master thing for longtime masters. So, after you'd been a master for so long you get to specialize as a reward for staying a smith for... months (?). I wouldn't allow it any lower than master since only a master has all the experimentation points so it is kind of pointless to give it to non-masters since they still won't be as good as a master could be. But them you still have to whole problem of the masters crushing all non-masters. We already basically control the market. Making masters even better could have a very bad effect on the up-and-coming weaponsmiths.... and we do need to encourage new blood in our profession.
That said I like the idea a a way to distinguish masters from each other. Not every master weaponsmith would be the same (ignoring resources), and possibly as a reward for becoming an "old master."
GwieF
Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:44 am
#5
I prefer the idea of getting some bonus from the relevent combat skills
eg:
for getting master marksman +1 experimentation on ranged weapons
for master rifleman another +1 to rifle experimentation
14 exp instead of 12 isn't a huge advantage but would allows a little less ham or better range
I think it would help liven the weaponry market up a bit instead of just whoever is the oldest with the best resources is the best at everything.
eg:
for getting master marksman +1 experimentation on ranged weapons
for master rifleman another +1 to rifle experimentation
14 exp instead of 12 isn't a huge advantage but would allows a little less ham or better range
I think it would help liven the weaponry market up a bit instead of just whoever is the oldest with the best resources is the best at everything.
p4Samwise
Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:27 pm
#6
Tortilla wrote:
bad idea. as a master i should be able to craft the best components and weapons.
That's the beautiful thing. You ARE, as long as they're the ones you specialize in. If you want to be able to make the best of EVERYTHING, though, you'll need help.
Realistically, I think the signature system should give you one signature schem per skill tree, plus one or two at master. This means master weaponsmiths might have, say, six schematics. More than enough for one master to be the undisputed master of a few types of firearm all on his own. If you want to be able to make lots of different firearms on your own, though, you specialize in six types of end-product firearm, and farm out subcomponent work to novices.
If you're really **edit**-retentive about not getting help from anyone and you still want to make the best of everything, make a bunch of manufacturing schematics of one of your signatures, drop master, regrind some AXP, and pick a new signature schematic so you can do it again. Call this the "catass loner tax".
Thodious
Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:35 pm
#7
There was a reason this was dropped during beta ... nobody liked it.
Thodius
p4Samwise
Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:37 pm
#8
Jedi_Titus wrote:
1. if there is the ability to change your "signature weapon" without extreme difficulty them many smiths will simply make one signature weapon then change their choise and make the next weapon as another signature weapon...rinse, repeat till ALL their weapons are the super dooper signature weapons...
Changing the signature weapon should require gaining a new skill box, at the very least. Once you hit master, therefore, you're locked in unless you drop and relearn master. While you're still learning, you can swap out a lot - the hope is that by the time you've hit master you've figured out what type of weapon you want to specialize in.
That does all on its own seem to limit things for masters, though. Perhaps they get to switch out ONE schematic every month or two?
2. If you can choose a component the general balance of the game could be thrown off with multiple additional bonuses stacking to make insanely powerful weapons.
If the bonus is given in terms of max experimentation points (e.g. for that weapon you have 13 experimentation points regardless of any other bonuses or skills), nothing gets too unbalanced, because you still can't experiment past the limits of your materials. For most items, the only thing that'd be unbalanced would be going past the limits on damage, and most weapons hit the damage limit anyway.
Hence, the main benefit of going to a novice smith to get his signature rifle barrels or whatever would most likely be enhanced durability. Not horribly unbalancing. The more important thing is that the novice smith can make barrels at least as good as what you can make, so if nothing else you CAN farm work out to him without harming your own end product.
The only way I see this as working would be you could only pick a final weapon, not components, and once you chose that's it you can't change it. I'd put it as a "super" master thing for longtime masters. So, after you'd been a master for so long you get to specialize as a reward for staying a smith for... months (?). I wouldn't allow it any lower than master since only a master has all the experimentation points so it is kind of pointless to give it to non-masters since they still won't be as good as a master could be. But them you still have to whole problem of the masters crushing all non-masters. We already basically control the market. Making masters even better could have a very bad effect on the up-and-coming weaponsmiths.... and we do need to encourage new blood in our profession.
Nope. I specifically think that this should be an equalizer between novices and masters. The thing that keeps it from being unfair to masters (I see you writhing in agony, Tortilla, don't worry) is that novices get fewer signature items, and most likely their signature items are the only things they can make that are worthwhile. Masters, by contrast, can make almost anything at near-perfect quality - they just get a slight extra boost if they work with other weaponsmiths (either novice or master).
That said I like the idea a a way to distinguish masters from each other. Not every master weaponsmith would be the same (ignoring resources), and possibly as a reward for becoming an "old master."
I agree, distinguishing between masters is another great benefit of this system. Realistically, how many craftsmen make the best of EVERYTHING? Stradivarius didn't make uber-violins AND uber-guitars AND uber-accordions. He made the best violins in the world. And that was it. But damn, is he famous for them.
p4Samwise
Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:38 pm
#9
Thodious wrote:
There was a reason this was dropped during beta ... nobody liked it.
What I'm talking about wasn't in beta. Read the entire post.
Thodious
Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:41 pm
#10
p4 wrote:
Back in the olden days, we had schematic loss, forcing master smiths to buy components from novice smiths. This forced cooperation between masters and novices, but it was annoying because it was such a huge gating factor for the masters.
----------------------------------------
Funny, I remember this distinctly in beta.
Thodius
p4Samwise
Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:47 pm
#11
Did you read the rest of the post, in which the thing I described was nothing like schematic loss? What I'm describing is something that tries to accomplish the same goal, but in an entirely different way.
Thodious wrote:
p4 wrote:
Back in the olden days, we had schematic loss, forcing master smiths to buy components from novice smiths. This forced cooperation between masters and novices, but it was annoying because it was such a huge gating factor for the masters.
----------------------------------------
Funny, I remember this distinctly in beta.
Message Edited by p4Samwise on 02-17-2004 11:49 AM
Thodious
Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:58 pm
#12
Hey you wanted discussion.
It doesn't matter if its based on loss of schematics, or novices getting bonuses in making sub-components, or getting a few extra points for "specializing". I sincerely doubt you will get any respectable number of wepsmiths to endorse your idea.
People don't want to be at the mercy of others to be able to produce top-quality weapons. I have enough of a time coming up with tissues, and other enhancements. The last thingI want isto have to find someone else to make (for example) powerhandlers or barrelsto be competitive.
And as far has having to team up with other smiths to be able to provide to my customers their various wants... no thanks.
Thodius
Message Edited by Thodious on 02-17-2004 02:59 PM
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