Weaponsmith Archive
Thread: Weapon comparison and rating
It was all so confusing. So I did a whole bunch of research, found out a bunch of formulas, how everything worked together, and what the numbers were. And I still didn't understand it.
So instead of trying to understand it, I just made a little javascript application to do it for me.
Since a lot of the information on actual damage came from the bounty hunter forum, that is where I first made mention of it. However, it is likely of interest to weaponsmiths to better understand how good their weapons really are, and how to market them.
I won't repeat what I've already said, so for more details, go look at the other thread. And if any of my formulas look wrong, let me know. I still don't understand some of it.
Nice application of data, wish our correspondant did it. But with that said, since you prolly know I'm a critic, if you don't, I am a critic. There now you know. For along time, I posted over on the SL forum. Let me tell you that's a quiet forum and I spoke to myself mostly.
I'll start to reason whyyourefforts were in vane.
It doesn't calculatedefense numbersof the target into the equation. It hopelessly gorefies the simplicity of "High numbers are good, low numbers are bad."When your undercover as a Rifleman, you actually want to shoot slower, using /aim inbetween /concealshot to slow down the inevitable M in HAM saturation. So long as your undercover there is no hurry.
It doesn't correlate buffs by docs and chefs into HAM costs.
Nor does it correlate skillprogression in the elite weapon speed.
I doesn't correlate accuracy while moving? If I were "punching paper at the range" for my FBI certification, like Fox, then hey, its a wonderful tool. But I'm not.
However, would you like the job as Weaponsmith Correspondant? That is an impressive tool nonetheless, it sure beats the one over at SWGCraft in the ease of use catagory!
Oar
PS. REMOVE HAM ON MUNITIONS!!! Its not a special to lob napalm, any halfwit ape can do it.
Both great posts...
But it does take a bit of effort, or HAM if you will, to lob Napalm... Otherwise they wouldnt print "Front toward enemy" on the claymore.. )
Tiq
payingcustomer wrote:Nice application of data, wish our correspondant did it. But with that said, since you prolly know I'm a critic, if you don't, I am a critic. There now you know. For along time, I posted over on the SL forum. Let me tell you that's a quiet forum and I spoke to myself mostly.
I'll start to reason why your efforts were in vane.
It doesn't calculate defense numbers of the target into the equation. It hopelessly gorefies the simplicity of "High numbers are good, low numbers are bad." When your undercover as a Rifleman, you actually want to shoot slower, using /aim inbetween /concealshot to slow down the inevitable M in HAM saturation. So long as your undercover there is no hurry.
Do you use HAM when your target runs into a hut or behind a wall and your spamming specials.. YES! How do you account for the loss?It doesn't correlate buffs by docs and chefs into HAM costs.
Nor does it correlate skill progression in the elite weapon speed.
I doesn't correlate accuracy while moving? If I were "punching paper at the range" for my FBI certification, like Fox, then hey, its a wonderful tool. But I'm not.
However, would you like the job as Weaponsmith Correspondant? That is an impressive tool nonetheless, it sure beats the one over at SWGCraft in the ease of use catagory!
Oar
PS. REMOVE HAM ON MUNITIONS!!! Its not a special to lob napalm, any halfwit ape can do it.
You are right, there is a lot this doesn't take into account. I'll let you know why I ignored each one. (I did think about them.. The functions that calculate the various aspects of damage have places for me to add in extra modifiers.)
- Defense numbers of the target
A fair thing to consider when figuring out what sort of damage you'll deal. However, my goal was to rate weapons relative to each other, and the target's defense is applied evenly no matter what weapon you use.
- HAM use
This is really way beyond the scope of a simple number cruncher. There are a multitude of specials each eith their own plusses and minuses. Which one to use in what situation is a question of strategy. It would theoretically be possible to figure out the ideal order of specials... But since we don't live in an ideal world it won't help you when they run behind a building, or when they charge at you, or you get dizzied, or... you get the idea.
The HAM rating is simply a metric of how much "punch" you're getting for the extra HAM cost. I don't even know if it really equates to anything meaningful.
- Buffs on HAM cost
A good doctor buff pretty much negates any HAM cost at all.
- Accuracy while moving
This one is probably a bit more fair as something to include. In fact, any accuracy modifier is. The reason is as you get up in skills it's very easy to hit the cap on accuracy. At that point, standing, kneeling, prone, running, it makes little difference to accuracy, you're still at the cap either way. If I can get a comprehensive list of all accuracy modifiers, I may include it. Then I would also need to include "accuracy while moving" skill mods as well. There really are a lot of accuracy mods.... Posture, targets posture, if you're moving, if the target is moving, distance, if you're a scout and they're an animal, if you aim (Or use other specials), if theres a SL in the group... That's just off the top of my head.
- Other weapon attributes (Featherweight FWG5 for example, or DOTs)
You missed this one. But it is another thing that isn't taken into account.
- Strategy (Riflemen want high damage over speed)
You don't want all the fun of working out the best strategy in different situations taken out of it, do you? This is again something strategy based. For a good idea of why computers aren't good at strategy type things, try and find a reasonably fast computer that can beat most decent players at chess. Then try and find out how long it wa worked on to get it to that way. And chess is simple strategy wise; it's a nice rigid system, which computers love.
You're right, it isn't everything. But I didn't intend it to be everything. In the end, it is people playing the games, not computers. (Well, it should be, but that's a rant of a different color.) There are all sorts of situations that you are left to work out yourself. A good example is a finishing shot. You may have a weapon with a nice high DPS, but when they get low, you might want to pull out a weapon with a lot of damage but so slow as to hurt it's DPS and do a targetted shot.
I never intended this to be an end-all and be-all of exactly what weapon to use. I recognize that is an impractical task, and it takes some of the fun out of the game. I do appreciate the input though. Without feedback, meaningful improvements can not be made. So feel free to tell me how wrong I am in one of my above statements.
Tiaga wrote:
There really are a lot of accuracy mods....if you aim (Or use other specials), if theres a SL in the group...
I convinced Steadaim doesn't do a thing for accuracy, it justgrants a hit doesn't it? I've been through this before, when I go low in posture, I visably see a change in my accuracy on targets halo numbers. But if I stand next to a squad leader spamming /steadyaims on a /pause 1.25 cycle, do my targets halo numbers change to +50 eventually?
I know the answer to this, but I am prolly dated, since I surrendered my SL skills sometime ago. Things may have changed w/o a notification, by the SL Correspondant. I'll check over there, but I don't think those halo accuracy numbers do anything when a SL uses /steadyaim, personally I think its a glorified free next hit for all in the group.
And about /aim, wouldn't it be nicer if this were better explained? I mean, is it +25 @ any range? Seems that way. +25 accuracy is quite skimpy for giving up a turn of firing, especially if your waiting 6-7s to fire.That's like 12-14s tostill risk a miss.What aboutthose times when you just can't afford the HAM to follow it up with a /actionshot? Why couldn't it help your next shot, hit the lowest bar. Arn't you aiming for something vital anyway???
Oar
I tried the numbers.. For +25 to be worth a loss of a combat round, you would need to have your overall accuracy mod (All bonuses and penalties added together) be -110 before the +25 bonus (Giving you an 11% chance to hit). Well, depending on where the +25 is applied. If it applied to the overall accuracy mod, then you'd need -80 (A 26% chance to hit) before it was of any use. If I'm up against those to-hit changes, I'm going to be looking for something that will hit more often.
Tiaga wrote:
Agreed, if that's what /aim is, it's pretty useless.
I'm not sure where your pulling those percentages from, Tiaga.
Accuracy doesn't seem to me to be updating in the halo in regards to my targets ranged defense changes. If I duel a guy at 60m and he tells me he just ate Elshandruu Pica Thundercloud, his halo numbers do not change. How do you explain this phenomenon? Do you think he was lying to me?
The time people need /aim the most is when they are fleeing. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans when your prone, already. Since it stops your movement(a glitch you think), I can't see where its necesary to stop running to aim. A wasted skill, desperately needing a revamp is /aim. I guess this belongs in the Marksman thread tho.
I gave up trying to reach a Dev, I think they have me on iggy, ever since my ban.
Oar
Your weapon at that range
Your posture
Your opponents posture
SOME skills used (/aim does show up)
What does it not represent?
Your accuracy skill with that weapon (Pistol accuracy, carbine accuracy, etc)
Your opponents chance to dodge*
Where did I get those percentages from? Why, from some very in depth threads of people doing research on hit percentages. And in turn, the formula I used in this tool.
*The food you are referring to I believe increases the chance to dodge. It may seem like this is a decrease in the chance to hit, but it is not. There is a fine distinction. The difference is for them to dodge, you must already have successfully hit. Once you successfully hit, they get a chance to dodge. So no, the food would not change your accuracy at all.
If you'd like to check it out, you can get it from:
http://www.crystalkeep.com/swg/TeevWeapons.xls
I did not work in the accuracy or HAM calculators. I'll have to give that some thought. There are also likely to be a few errors or bugs in there somewhere as this has mostly been used by me and a few of my customers.
Also, the unarmed combat page of the spreadsheet is wild guesses right now. I'm still collecting data for comparing unarmed to Vibro Knucklers.
I'll be happy to collect input and suggestions via this thread or via e-mail to "[email protected]".
Thanks,
Teev.
Master Weaponsmith
Arion City ~ Corellia ~ Kettemoor
Tiaga wrote:
What ...?
Wowzer, what a redirect.And from a person "in the know."
Iclearlywrote the food. I'll mention it once again, It's not Air Cake, reread my post, Correspondent Tiaga. Elshandruu Pica Thundercloud is the Ranged Def food.If its so easy for you to misreadone of my posts, it must be incredibly easy for you to misinterpret a complexdeveloper post full of Thunderheart obfusications.Try the test, see the numbers, then proceed to debunk me. It'll save you much humiliation. I shall use myLogic weapon on you, because your strong in Nerf defense.
Thanks tho, Oar
payingcustomer wrote:
I shall use myLogic weapon on you, because your strong in Nerf defense.
The need for clarity and brevity is of utmost importance,handwaving complexities as simplicities doesn't cut the cheese.
Incidently, if I go about proving thatjustoneofthe new Publish 6 foods is not performing as it should perform,as it was CRAFTED to perform; haven't I then proven them all to not beworking as they should be working? Prove to me that they are? The trust in calculations becomes attacked, the faith inanunprejudicedcalculationis at the foundation of any RPG for which I choose to play, especially overtly, and if your using these letters, RPG, and weighting the results, "throwing loaded die.." if you please, then that is a bad BAD thing.
If it were to reach the magazines well the repurcusions would be more enormous than I could imagine. SOE fudges the numbers, I can see it now on the cover of PC Gamer's March copy. SOE missed deadlines in there latest release, and when it was released it, it didn't keep its promises. SOE flops, your fancy colored names become nothing more than ghosts on a dead forum. Then when Logix blirps about someone being a troll, he just finds himself the Troll.
Tiaga so, tell me, you've read the priveledged forums, why don't those defense numbers change? I'm curious and would love to see a detailed TO HIT chart based on these dubiously curious food % changes that I am so hungry for. Wet my pallet.
Thanx, Oar
I said I believe the food gives an increased chance to dodge. I never said I knew. I've only looked closely at a few of the foods. There is also some question if any of the non stat mod foods are even working properly right now. You will notice, however, that never did I disagree with anything you said.
However, the issue of any use of food to change defenses is irrelevent as the case may be. The penalty to hit, weather as a decrease to accuracy or a increase to chance to dodge, because it is applied the same to all weapons. There is no stat that will change the relative abilities of one weapon over another in the presense of increased defense.
Tiaga wrote:
use of food to change defenses is irrelevent
This is what I said. This is what my test proved. SoItakeTiaga's most recent response as confirming that crafting and eating Elshandruu Pica Thundercloud is useless and to use, Tiaga's term, "irrelevent." I wouldn't apologize for picking a fight, the best things in natural history happened after skirmishes.
Oar