Weaponsmith Archive

Message Edited by Puttley on 09-28-2005 01:37 PM

I am not sure about that because:
A)I am not a rifleman and
B) I would hate to waste good enhancements on something that didn't work out.

Try making one without the enhancements and see how long your SAC lasts in a test.

Won't work well...

Give me a second and I'll put another post in explaining the positives and negatives of crafting like this.

Lets run a few quick calculations... (keep in mind these are fictional numbers though should be close to real numbers

Weapon1(ALR) 2.55
speed 400-1165 max
82 SAC

Weapon2(ALR)
2.30 speed
450-1184 max
126 SAC

Lets calculate out DPS(((max+min)/2)/speed)) first

Weapon1 = 307dps((1165+400/2)/2.55)
Weapon2 = 355dps((1184+450/2)/2.3)

Based on pure DPS weapon2 looks like the clear winner. Now lets take into consideration the SAC. No one really knows what the max Action a player has is so lets assume it is 1000 for the sake of this comparison.

Weapon1 = 82 SAC = 12 shots(984 action)
Weapon2 = 126 SAC = 7 shots(882 action)/8 shots(1008)

Weapon1 = 12shots x782(average damage on weapon) = 9384 damage before you run out of action not counting the regen.
Weapon2 = 7shots x817(average damage on weapon) = 5719 damage before you run out of action not counting the regen.

Lets just assume for the sake of argument that your modded speed would reduce your overall speed by 1.0. That means that...

Weapon1 = 12 shots x 1.55speed = 18.6 seconds till your useless (9384 damage)
Weapon2 = 7 shots x 1.30 speed = 9.1 seconds till your useless (5719 damage)

So to sum it all up. using weapon 1 will give you a much more consistant damage over time, and ultimately more damage for the time period. 18 seconds to do 9k+ damage vs weapon2 which would be 9 seconds to do 5k+ damage. Assuming you didn't have to wait for your action to regen then you could do slightly more damage in the same time period using weapon2, but considering it would take several seconds to regen your full action bar. You would leave your opponent with free time to do damage, forcing you to heal. or even worse it gives them an opportunity to KD you while your action is low and lay on the damage since you have to wait for your action to regenerate in order to use KD recovery. It's really a question of preferring the stop'n'go type fighting that weapon2 would offer, vs the constant battle you would get with Weapon1. It's certainly a usable tactic but I think you will find that most people prefer weapon1 because it takes to long to wait on action constantly while you can do nothing but heal. Also keep in mind all of the states/roots/snares etc that would take up action and not give any damage output.

To make a much clearer picture lets just assume that it takes you roughly 15 seconds to regenerate a full action bar from empty. Now lets assume your battle lasts for 5minutes (pretty common these days).
Weapon1 = 18 seconds till action is empty then a 15 second recharge period = 33 seconds total for a full round = 9384 damage
Weapon2 = 9 seconds till action is empty then a 15 second recharge period = 24 seconds total for a full round = 5719 damage

This means that in 5minutes time you would get the following results...

Weapon1 = 33 seconds per round @ 9384 = 9 rounds(4.95mins) for a total damage of 84,456 damage
Weapon2 = 24 seconds per round @ 5719 = 12 rounds(4.8 mins) for a total damage of 68,628 damage

84456
-68628
----------
15,828 additional damage by using weapon1

I know this is kind of helter skelter but I hope it makes sense. If you could kill your oponnent in the first 7 shots then weapon2 would be a reasonable option, but if you lack the ability to kill in 7 shots or lessthen you should consider weapon1 as your main weapon.

Any good WS could calculate out what rough estimates would be for the weapon based on how you want it experimented (though it may cost a little for them to run test weapons, well worth it IMO)

Get exact figures or as close as possible to exact for the two different options you are considering then run through the calculation testing that I did above so you can get an accurate comparison.

Also if you took the time to caluclate out exactly how many seconds it takes you to regen a full action bar that would also help in this calculation as I pretty much just pulled a figure out of my -edit-. I have run tests before and high SAC weapons just take too much away from your damage output unless you truely are expecting a short battle. Making a full damage/speed weapon may come in handy as a secondary weapon but I would never consider it for a main weapon. Having low action leaves you very vulnerable and puts you on the defensive very quickly. having high SAC and Low speeds just puts you in that position much faster .

Considering you are looking at Trading speed for SAC it just is not worth the trade. Just look at it this way. If damage is the same or close to it(should be pretty close in this case) then your looking at how quickly your action bar drains. if your increasing your action drain and making it drain faster at the same time, that's just bad all around . If you were trading action cost for damage it might become more reasonable but since you should be hitting pretty darn close with the enhancements today while still getting good speed orSAC then the clear choice is SAC. If you would like you could consider playing around with a variation somewhere in the middle, but I find that it's much better to go for SAC first and then put what's left into speed.

Based on pure DPS weapon2 looks like the clear winner. Now lets take into consideration the SAC. No one really knows what the max Action a player has is so lets assume it is 1000 for the sake of this comparison.

Weapon1 = 82 SAC = 12 shots(984 action)
Weapon2 = 126 SAC = 7 shots(882 action)/8 shots(1008)

Weapon1 = 12shots x782(average damage on weapon) = 9384 damage before you run out of action not counting the regen.
Weapon2 = 7shots x817(average damage on weapon) = 5719 damage before you run out of action not counting the regen.

Lets just assume for the sake of argument that your modded speed would reduce your overall speed by 1.0. That means that...

so,

Weapon 1 = 82 SAC = (2% + 10%)/2 = 6% of your sac avarage per shot = 6% x 0.82 = 4.92% = 20 shots

Weapon 2 = 126 SAC = (2% + 10%)/2 = 6% of your sac avarage per shot = 6% x1.26 = 7.56% =13 shots

also as all the time you're re-generating action (i always have a buff, blob candy and booster blue 24/7) at 5% per second (4% with no buffs or food) you're only down on action by 1% or 2% a second, and thats if you can shoot ever second. if your shots are ever 1.5 sec then action will never run out.and damage is then down to the fastest weapon that does the most damage. though get too fast and you drain your action again.

from there my argument is all ifs and buts - if you put a damage pup on and run with a combat speed buff all the time, you may still be shooting at your 'regen' cap, but a 30% damage pup adds 135 damage to weapon 2 and 120 damage to weapon 1. then the question is will, after speed buff, and speed tapes would you notice the difference in firing speed?

made it last night:

525 -1184 damage (693-1152 after a dam pup)

2.16 speed (2.37 after a dam pup) - 1.39 speed with my rifleman

126 sac

just found some old tests i did with a dam/sac cappedALR - vs same target in similar conditions but with a speed pup- buffs, etc - with head/critical shot 694 or 732 dam every 2 sec (approx) = 340 damage/sec.

witha a damage pup i was firing a little slower (but not much- doc buff helps) head/critical hit for 832/879 respectivly at about 2.2 sec/shot = 388 damage

however this is more a comparison between shot types and is somewhat disputed from other tests i've seen.

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Puttley wrote:

made it last night:

525 -1184 damage (693-1152 after a dam pup)

2.16 speed (2.37 after a dam pup) - 1.39 speed with my rifleman

126 sac

i tested it on a jedi with aura and 30 innate armor i was hitting ranged shot for 481 damage and 529 with placed at only a little over 1 shot a second. and it took more thana reasonable time to drain my action completely. i'll see if i cant get some info from my combat logs soon......question is is this a better way than using a nice dam/sac capped rifle with an variety of pup on it and spamming head/critical? or any other high damage/high sac shot.

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jason67 wrote:

Lets run a few quick calculations... (keep in mind these are fictional numbers though should be close to real numbers

Weapon1(ALR) 2.55
speed 400-1165 max
82 SAC

Weapon2(ALR)
2.30 speed
450-1184 max
126 SAC

Lets calculate out DPS(((max+min)/2)/speed)) first

Weapon1 = 307dps((1165+400/2)/2.55)
Weapon2 = 355dps((1184+450/2)/2.3)

Based on pure DPS weapon2 looks like the clear winner. Now lets take into consideration the SAC. No one really knows what the max Action a player has is so lets assume it is 1000 for the sake of this comparison.

Weapon1 = 82 SAC = 12 shots(984 action)
Weapon2 = 126 SAC = 7 shots(882 action)/8 shots(1008)

Weapon1 = 12shots x782(average damage on weapon) = 9384 damage before you run out of action not counting the regen.
Weapon2 = 7shots x817(average damage on weapon) = 5719 damage before you run out of action not counting the regen.

Lets just assume for the sake of argument that your modded speed would reduce your overall speed by 1.0. That means that...

Weapon1 = 12 shots x 1.55speed = 18.6 seconds till your useless (9384 damage)
Weapon2 = 7 shots x 1.30 speed = 9.1 seconds till your useless (5719 damage)

So to sum it all up. using weapon 1 will give you a much more consistant damage over time, and ultimately more damage for the time period. 18 seconds to do 9k+ damage vs weapon2 which would be 9 seconds to do 5k+ damage. Assuming you didn't have to wait for your action to regen then you could do slightly more damage in the same time period using weapon2, but considering it would take several seconds to regen your full action bar. You would leave your opponent with free time to do damage, forcing you to heal. or even worse it gives them an opportunity to KD you while your action is low and lay on the damage since you have to wait for your action to regenerate in order to use KD recovery. It's really a question of preferring the stop'n'go type fighting that weapon2 would offer, vs the constant battle you would get with Weapon1. It's certainly a usable tactic but I think you will find that most people prefer weapon1 because it takes to long to wait on action constantly while you can do nothing but heal. Also keep in mind all of the states/roots/snares etc that would take up action and not give any damage output.

To make a much clearer picture lets just assume that it takes you roughly 15 seconds to regenerate a full action bar from empty. Now lets assume your battle lasts for 5minutes (pretty common these days).
Weapon1 = 18 seconds till action is empty then a 15 second recharge period = 33 seconds total for a full round = 9384 damage
Weapon2 = 9 seconds till action is empty then a 15 second recharge period = 24 seconds total for a full round = 5719 damage

This means that in 5minutes time you would get the following results...

Weapon1 = 33 seconds per round @ 9384 = 9 rounds(4.95mins) for a total damage of 84,456 damage
Weapon2 = 24 seconds per round @ 5719 = 12 rounds(4.8 mins) for a total damage of 68,628 damage

84456
-68628
----------
15,828 additional damage by using weapon1

I know this is kind of helter skelter but I hope it makes sense. If you could kill your oponnent in the first 7 shots then weapon2 would be a reasonable option, but if you lack the ability to kill in 7 shots or lessthen you should consider weapon1 as your main weapon.

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