Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: My experiences with Knockdown
I've been playing a lot with different combinations of specials/VKs since the patch, trying to settle into a new, workable strategy that doesn't leave me exhausted at the end of a hard fight. I may just have found such a strategy.
First, a caveat. I am not a very high level TKA. I have 1 box in Balance Cond. for Knockdown1, and I am around 10-20k short of Dizzy and Unarmed Body Hit (getting there!). So take what I found with a grain of salt - I'm sure the experience with KD2 and at higher levels (against higher mobs) is going to vary a great deal. But the strategy I've settled on is based on logical principles and might work for others too.
First, it's been noted that some foods offer buffs. This is true - but you don't need to pay big bucks to a Master Chef. I have a modicum of survey skill and Dom Arts I. I craft my own snacks, like Exo-Protein Wafers (+32 Con and Willpower). They're cheap and easy to make and provide a small boost prior to a fight. It's cost me 4 skill points for 1 box of survey and 1 of Dom Arts, and you don't even need that if you are happy with Travel Biscuits (+31 Con) or Boffa Treats. Just buy Novice Artisan, get some ingredients, and craft.
Second, I've foresaken armor for the most part. I know most of you don't wear any at all. I'm human (female), and I tried combat both with a Ubese tunic (103 Health encumb.) and without. I have a Padded tunic as well, but the HAM costs on it are outrageous by comparison. The only armor I wear now are Ubese bracers (10/13/18 HAM), boots (10/26/18 HAM) and gloves (18/25/35 HAM). I'm probably able to get away with more Action penalty because as a Master Dancer I already have a high Action pool. If I were to eliminate any of these and stick with one, it would be my boots. They take more damage than the bracers and gloves combined.
Last, I do not use specials with my VK equipped. The increase in HAM cost is deadly - I have been incap'd too many times testing this to even think about having my VK's on while I Stun, Blind or KD. I have my VKs on a hotkey and start fights with them unequipped. I also unequip them if I want to use a special. Equipping/unequipping is pretty instantaneous, unlike in other games.
Over a series of some 20 combats last night, all PvE, I found that without VK equipped my Knockdown1 costs me -215 HAM. In exchange for that, the Sleeping Krayt move (KD) does around 210-220 damage. Following that, the mob is so disoriented it does not hit me, and if it tries it misses, while I can get in from 8 to 12 free hits before it recovers! The average damage on those hits, with VK equipped, was in the 150-300 range, most of them in the 250-270 range. I tracked unretaliated damage (when the mob either missed me or did not even try) at from 1400 to 2100 damage total for those 8 to 12 hits!
Now, I'm no happier about the HAM nerfs than any of you. And I do hope the Devs fix the bugs that the patch put in (see the other post on the HAM bug). But using this strategy I find that I'm almost back to the position I was before the patch - happily soloing, dealing major damage, and/or helping my group by putting the mob on its butt while they blast it. I just have to play smarter and be more careful, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Sinda is right, i have tracked this as well.
Another thing you might try especially against even con mobs is a little used brawler skill "warcry"
Warcry since i have been messing with it can cause the same kind of KD stun times against most creatures. It doesnt land nearly as often at KD can but the special cost on it is next to nothing, you can practically spam this move till it lands. Even with VK"s equipped.
I have seen creatures slowed down to a point with Warycry that they only swing about once every 9 or 10 seconds sometimes. And with my lvl of TKA with my current knucklers my attack speed is at the cap of 1.0 so thats 10 hits for me averaging about 300 a hit vs the creature hitting me once in the same time frame.
I need some of you TK's to test this on your own, i didnt do any time stamp logs on this but just counting or watching my watch.
My numbers may be a bit off. But i think they are quite close. Give it a try you find a new thing to use.
Syl
This is all very well written, and all well and good... at the level you are currently playing. You have described pretty well my fighting style pre-nerf... Knock em down, Stun, Blind, Dizzy (because I like the move, even though KD2 usually took care of this for me) wail on them a bit and when they getback up do some more fancy moves. Unfortunately, at higher levels, if you wish to receive more than 10 unarmed and 1 combat as your reward, you are fighting mobs that require sometimes up to 4, 5 and beyond KD's before they finally hit the ground for the first time. And while you are hoping and praying that they will soon fall they are wailing on you for 200-500 damage a pop. At this level of play (I am currently 3/4/4/3) if the first KD fails I am fortunate to get a second chance. If it succeeds, I can usually get the mob down to about third HAM before I need to pray for another KD to succeed. If the second KD fails the fight is over, if it succeeds another 1/3 HAM and a prayer for a successful KD. Fighting solo I am fortunate to defeat an even con one out of 2 attempts for my 10 unarmed xp and 1 combat xp. A yellow or red is out of the question.
My current strategy? Fortunately I had enough faction points to requisition some personnel help. I send in my three goons until the mob is good and angry (hoping for a single mob to attack... if there are multiples I start spamming "Follow" as I run like a little baby in hopes of escaping)and then go in andattempt KD. IfKD failsmore than twice I spam the "Follow" command and get out of there. Not very glamorous but the best I have been able to come up with so far. If anyone can improve on this, please let me know. I desparately want to be able to play.
Sure, alternate combos work against low to mid-level mobs. But, again, it's just extra work that we have to do. Nearly all other professions (including other melee professions) still outdamage us/chain specials (without having to unequip weapons) with little to no HAM cost. How is that fair to us, especially considering TKA was (and has been) gimped weeks ago.
In regard to the high-end of the game: combos rare work, and if they do, it's usually after several attempts ... which means you've essentially killed yourself with HAM hits.
Honestly, I'm getting rather tired of all of the responders saying, "Well, just un-equip your VK's ... then, do move A, mvoe D move B, followed by a Move C ...." These are nothing but what people in the software industy call 'work-arounds'. The fact is, all other classes can fight without having to do any of this extra-work.
When I'm using my other skills, I just stand around and laugh for the most part. Pistoleer? I just spam warning shot all day long, and kitethe mob. I never get TOUCHED. Loosehardlyany HAM. Swordsman? I just mind hit and then do you 1000+ damage attack (and I"m not even a swordsman yet! lol still just a novice brawler! lol)
It's just sad that TKA's were the underdogs BEFORE this ridiculous patch, and now people are making excuses/finding work arounds tomake the new patch 'okay with everyone'. For these people, I suggest playing some of the other professions for a little while.
As soon as you play ANY other combat profession, you'll see exactly just how EASY everyone else has it in this game.
Metherian wrote:
Sure, alternate combos work against low to mid-level mobs. But, again, it's just extra work that we have to do. Nearly all other professions (including other melee professions) still outdamage us/chain specials (without having to unequip weapons) with little to no HAM cost. How is that fair to us, especially considering TKA was (and has been) gimped weeks ago.
I agree it's patently unfair - but I also hope SOE gets the message and continues trying to balance the classes. Frankly, I do think I was slightly overpowered before the patch, but as I said I'm not very high level yet. I was able to take down yellows in 3 hits with Berserk without so much as a scratch. That's not balanced - but then neither is the over-nerf they did on us.
In regard to the high-end of the game: combos rare work, and if they do, it's usually after several attempts ... which means you've essentially killed yourself with HAM hits.
I have my share of failures too, but the difference in HAM costs between VK equipped and unequipped is substantial: 211 to 215 without VK, 710 with it! I never use KD with my knuckles on. It would be suicide.
Honestly, I'm getting rather tired of all of the responders saying, "Well, just un-equip your VK's ... then, do move A, mvoe D move B, followed by a Move C ...." These are nothing but what people in the software industy call 'work-arounds'. The fact is, all other classes can fight without having to do any of this extra-work.
And here I thought this board was for sharing ideas. Maybe if you're that tired of them you can just choose not to open the post? You yourself admitted we have a major problem, why sit on our butts and wait for SOE to do all the work? Work-arounds is exactly what we need.
When I'm using my other skills, I just stand around and laugh for the most part. Pistoleer? I just spam warning shot all day long, and kitethe mob. I never get TOUCHED. Loosehardlyany HAM. Swordsman? I just mind hit and then do you 1000+ damage attack (and I"m not even a swordsman yet! lol still just a novice brawler! lol)
Call me stubborn, but I intend to be a Master TK or die trying (Ok, I've already done the die part). It's just like me to pick unlikely, non-uber character combinations in these games, and a human female TK is only the beginning. Nerf me and it just makes me more determined than ever to make it work. I stuck with my Martial Artist in AO through at least 2 nerfs, as well, and she ended up being fine.
It's just sad that TKA's were the underdogs BEFORE this ridiculous patch, and now people are making excuses/finding work arounds tomake the new patch 'okay with everyone'. For these people, I suggest playing some of the other professions for a little while.
That kind of suggestion is condescending, Metherian. I happen to have a Scout (pistol)I play on another server and a Marksman on yet another. The scout is fun but not nearly as fun as my TK, even with the nerfs. I don't have to be uber to have fun.
As soon as you play ANY other combat profession, you'll see exactly just how EASY everyone else has it in this game.
I don't hear CHs, Commandos or Smugglers boasting. Droid Engineers and BioEngineers sorta-kinda suck right now. It's not true that we are the only victimized class, and it's also not true that things will always be the way they are now.
Maybe the difference between you and I is that I choose to figure out a solution that works for me. You choose to play another class and complain about those of us who are trying to help each other.
Sinda,
Thanks for the fine post, your observations are accurate. The only thing I would say is it takes 450k exp to go from any box 3 to box 4. Any mobs that you would fight that would take less than 200 to kill at that point will kill you, or incur significant downtime. I use stimpack B's that heal over 330pts Health/Action, wound healing packs, music healing 4 and still encounter significant downtime (much more than my ranged chars) just trying to fight blue mobs at my level. The skills work well with the damage inflicted by low to mid level mobs, but the higher level NPC's are another case. The 1800 mind damage shot I took today not withstanding, many of the mobs I now fight hit for 400-1000+ and while intemidate and warcry help not so much that it's almost impossible to advance at this point...but I do appreciate your post and outlook!!
dB
And here I thought this board was for sharing ideas. Maybe if you're that tired of them you can just choose not to open the post? You yourself admitted we have a major problem, why sit on our butts and wait for SOE to do all the work? Work-arounds is exactly what we need.
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Work arounds are NOT what we need. That's the whole point of 'why' I opened the post, Sinda. (Now who's condescending?) The fact of the matter is this: if we find work-arounds now, to alleviate problems that need to be addressed/fixed, only to find out that they won't be addressed/fixed, because the work-arounds will suffice for the time-being, then we will only have ourselves to blame in the future for not standing by our guns and demanding that things be fixed correctly. As a developer myself, the bottom line of many things depends on avaialbe 'TIME'.
If the devs see that we are 'okay' for now -- because we are all following Sinda's advice, and believing that "Hey, things aren't that bad, really."--guess what happens? The visibility of our issues diminishes. Our WORK (the same 'work' that you talk about, but don't really condone) becomes, instantly, 'all for nothing'.
The only way to get the problems addressed properly, promptly, and in an orderly fashion is to keep raising the issues and standing by them as problems. Work-arounds and defeatism will only serve to influence the devs into not making any move at all.
[quote]
That kind of suggestion is condescending, Metherian. I happen to have a Scout (pistol)I play on another server and a Marksman on yet another. The scout is fun but not nearly as fun as my TK, even with the nerfs. I don't have to be uber to have fun.
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How is suggesting that people play other professions for a littlewhile, instead of pretending things are okay,condescending? In my initial post, I was clearly trying to illustrate the vast inequalities between TKA and other combat professions. If you can't see that, then, hey, I can't help you.
[quote]
I don't hear CHs, Commandos or Smugglers boasting. Droid Engineers and BioEngineers sorta-kinda suck right now. It's not true that we are the only victimized class, and it's also not true that things will always be the way they are now.
[/quote]
Really, Sinda, the point is that you DON"T hear CH's, Commando's and Smugglers complaining, at least not with anything valid at this point. Understand? And, yes, I also hear them boasting, too. (Not commando, of course, being that they were recently fixed.)
Do you even play this game? (Sorry, I just can't believe that you've never heard ANY smuggler talk about their low blow shot, or CH'susing gurreks to kill everything ...
Also, BioEngineer and Droid Engineer are hardly combat professions, which I was clearly targeting. Please, in the future, try to think about what I'm saying before immediately responding with some haughty, half-cocked reply.
Metherian wrote:
Work arounds are NOT what we need. That's the whole point of 'why' I opened the post, Sinda. (Now who's condescending?) The fact of the matter is this: if we find work-arounds now, to alleviate problems that need to be addressed/fixed, only to find out that they won't be addressed/fixed, because the work-arounds will suffice for the time-being, then we will only have ourselves to blame in the future for not standing by our guns and demanding that things be fixed correctly. As a developer myself, the bottom line of many things depends on avaialbe 'TIME'.
This is a worthwhile discussion on approach, then, if you can dispense with the veiled barbs long enough.
I disagree completely. I love my TK, and I really doubt that finding work arounds is going to influence the Devs' approach - they have publicly stated that they know HAM costs are bugged right now. Our own Thunderwulf is one of the best correspondents in the game, and I trust him completely to represent our concerns to the Devs. Going on 'strike' - not playing the profession we want - is not going to solve the issue. It's only going to leave the problems unresolve because nobody will be left who is intimately familiar with the issues. It's far better IMO, to keep playing, work around the nerfs, and feed Thunderwulf with ideas for solutions. That's the only way this is going to work in the end.
If the devs see that we are 'okay' for now -- because we are all following Sinda's advice, and believing that "Hey, things aren't that bad, really."--guess what happens? The visibility of our issues diminishes. Our WORK (the same 'work' that you talk about, but don't really condone) becomes, instantly, 'all for nothing'.
First, I'm not the only one to suggest the buffs and equipping ideas. Second, whether I suggest it or not, the fact remains that 710 HAM for knockdown with VKs equipped is clearly outrageous. I don't know what HAM cost is for carbineers on specials, but one told me last night that most of his specials cost 50 HAM -- and my knockdown costs 210 in the best of circumstances? Working around things doesn't fix them, on that count you are absolutely correct. But the Devs know a workaround when they see it. They're not the Plant-IQ geeks most players envision.
The only way to get the problems addressed properly, promptly, and in an orderly fashion is to keep raising the issues and standing by them as problems. Work-arounds and defeatism will only serve to influence the devs into not making any move at all.
Here is the crux of the issue - you see workarounds as "defeatism". They're not. They're an effort to play the game in its gimped state. We can keep raising the issues and standing by them as problems and STILL use workarounds. I'm confused as to why you think these are mutually exclusive?
How is suggesting that people play other professions for a littlewhile, instead of pretending things are okay,condescending? In my initial post, I was clearly trying to illustrate the vast inequalities between TKA and other combat professions. If you can't see that, then, hey, I can't help you.
The thrust of your post to me was dismissive, and I don't take too kindly to that - nor, I submit, would you if the shoe were switched. All one has to do to realize the inequities between TK and other professions is to group with marksmen or PvP against a few ranged teams and see how long we last. Suggesting that we "try other classes" is standard fanboy retort, which is why it is annoying. Whether you're a fanboy or not, it was the tone of your suggestion that provoked.
Really, Sinda, the point is that you DON"T hear CH's, Commando's and Smugglers complaining, at least not with anything valid at this point. Understand? And, yes, I also hear them boasting, too. (Not commando, of course, being that they were recently fixed.)
Do you even read the boards? Commandos have NOT been fixed. The fix is coming in 2 weeks, but the mega-patch threw them a short-range launcher that looks like a hair dryer. I have close friends who play all 3 classes and none of them are completely happy.
Do you even play this game? (Sorry, I just can't believe that you've never heard ANY smuggler talk about their low blow shot, or CH'susing gurreks to kill everything ...Also, BioEngineer and Droid Engineer are hardly combat professions, which I was clearly targeting. Please, in the future, try to think about what I'm saying before immediately responding with some haughty, half-cocked reply.
Maybe you'll introduce me to one CH who has been happy with the changes since the big nerf, or the fact that their pets no longer self-regen. And personally, I consider ANY class in the game a reasonable example to be used, simply because we're talking about approaches to getting problems addressed. Whether they're combat classes or not is insignificant - maybe it suits your peevish rant to exclude them, but it certainly isn't logical.
Your post to me was abrasive and haughty, and you whimper because I give it back? Grow up, Metherian, and listen to what I'm saying instead of starting from the assumption that you are the sole arbiter of all that is best for SWG. Judging from your tone, not only do I wonder if YOU play the game, I wonder if you 'get along well with others'.
But, hey, I'm willing to be dissuaded. Convince me otherwise. Maybe instead of petty bickering we can actually think of constructive ideas to give Thunderwulf.
It's far better IMO, to keep playing, work around the nerfs, and feed Thunderwulf with ideas for solutions. That's the only way this is going to work in the end.
History says otherwise.I have playedM59, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, E&B, andEve, and have always seen development happen as I described. As far as I'm concerned, your argument isakin to "dinosaurs never existed", even though the fossil record is sitting right in front of you.
Working around things doesn't fix them, on that count you are absolutely correct. But the Devs know a workaround when they see it. They're not the Plant-IQ geeks most players envision.
Do the devs know a work-around when they see it? You're sure of this? What, in the history of their patches so far, convinces you that they have a 'clue' about the TKA profession? The last 'patch' felt like an Open Beta update--the game has become quite different (one thing I think you will agree on).And yet the devs "act" as though nothingsignificant has really changed. How is seeing patches like these supposed to convince me that they know what a work-around is, and that they areworking to correct things? We spent weeks giving them feedback as to how to improve the TKA profession. What do we get as a response? A five line 'backhand' of someone stating the obvious. I don't share your faith, Sinda, and I don't feel that I am wrong not to.
Here is the crux of the issue - you see workarounds as "defeatism". They're not. They're an effort to play the game in its gimped state. We can keep raising the issues and standing by them as problems and STILL use workarounds. I'm confused as to why you think these are mutually exclusive?
Yes, I see work-arounds as "defeatism". (See above.) I never said that I'm not still playing the game. I never said that I don't "manage" with the way things are. (You might want to keep that presumption of yours in check.) But you also don't see me making public posts, saying that "Things are okay ... it's not as bad as you think... here's a work-around for ya"
It's not the playing of the game that is the issue. It's making posts like these---that work against the cause and serve to attenuate what people are saying---that seem to give the devs a second thought about fixing things. It took them long enough to address the Commando profession. Do you really think they need counter-productive confusion when they start looking at these boards. Perhaps you give them more credit than I do.
The thrust of your post to me was dismissive, and I don't take too kindly to that - nor, I submit, would you if the shoe were switched. All one has to do to realize the inequities between TK and other professions is to group with marksmen or PvP against a few ranged teams and see how long we last. Suggesting that we "try other classes" is standard fanboy retort, which is why it is annoying. Whether you're a fanboy or not, it was the tone of your suggestion that provoked.
Well, I found your reply to my harmless post to be more dismissive than anything I initially said. So, you're still the one at fault in my opinion.
Again, I was suggesting that you TRY other professions. Did I tell you to abandon TKA? Did I tell you to shut up and stop whining, and just become a pistoleer?
No, I did not. All I said was TRY some of these professions, so that you can see my perspective.
I'm really sorry for you if you see a suggestion like this as a personal attack. Oh, and a "fanboy"is usually someone who fightsFOR SOE's cause, not against them. So, if you're going to use epithets, you can atleast use the right ones.
Do you even read the boards? Commandos have NOT been fixed. The fix is coming in 2 weeks, but the mega-patch threw them a short-range launcher that looks like a hair dryer. I have close friends who play all 3 classes and none of them are completely happy.
Of course I read the boards. And I mentioned that Commandos have only recently been given attention. Of course, you don't actually read what I write,apparently.
Maybe you'll introduce me to one CH who has been happy with the changes since the big nerf, or the fact that their pets no longer self-regen. And personally, I consider ANY class in the game a reasonable example to be used, simply because we're talking about approaches to getting problems addressed. Whether they're combat classes or not is insignificant - maybe it suits your peevish rant to exclude them, but it certainly isn't logical.
Sinda, I know several CH players who are quite happy and understanding of the changes. In fact, they were the ones who pointed it out to me that CH's were ridiculously over-powered. I know several smuggler players, as well, who always talked about the power of Low Blow. And, of course, I always have discussions with pistoleers and try to get their opinions on their pistol defense (Pistol Whip) ability. (As a TKA player, any other knockdown skill is of immediate interest to me.) Pistoleers even say that Pistol Whip was somewhat overpowered. If you want to meet them, come to Starsider.
Ever consider the possibility that maybe you're hanging out with the 'Uber Crowd'? Seriously, it sounds like most ofyour 'closefriends' are power gamers who want their profession to be all powerful.
LoL .. my peevish rant? I was talking about something specific: the inequities of combat professions. I'm sorry if I don't share your absurd opinion that Droid Engineers and Bio Engineers need to be in that particular discussion.
Your post to me was abrasive and haughty, and you whimper because I give it back? Grow up, Metherian, and listen to what I'm saying instead of starting from the assumption that you are the sole arbiter of all that is best for SWG. Judging from your tone, not only do I wonder if YOU play the game, I wonder if you 'get along well with others'.
But, hey, I'm willing to be dissuaded. Convince me otherwise. Maybe instead of petty bickering we can actually think of constructive ideas to give Thunderwulf.
It's odd ... I was going to be the 'better person' here and say, "Hey, I'm sorry you took my initial post the wrong way" ... but then I get to your last paragraph.
First, I don't care what you do with your time, Sinda. If you want to spend your life on this board, arguing over a game, then--hey--that's your prerogative. If you think I care about your little name-calling rant ... well, guess again.
The bottom line isthis: You obviously have no history with MMORPGs, your outlook on the dev team is 'idealistic' (at best), and no matter how informative a person can be, youfeel the need to resort toschool-yard name-calling instead of sticking to the issues. Obviously,my opinions aren't going to dissuade you from anything. Also, don't sit there and tellME that I have to convice YOU of good behavior, when you're the one who keeps turning uninformed opinion and presumption into a needless public display of stupidity.
I disagree completely. I love my TK, and I really doubt that finding work arounds is going to influence the Devs' approach - they have publicly stated that they know HAM costs are bugged right now.