Teras Kasi Archive

Thread: Does defensive acuity work?

Randil_Morel
Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:32 pm
#1

I have mastered the profession and never seen a single dodge, block or counter strike to a successful strike. So my question is does this skill work or am I missing something? I have had other professions that show dodges and counter stikes.


I would like to hear if anyone has seen it work.
Imspaced
Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:39 pm
#2

Yea it works really well, but it is stealth some how, I notice as a tka I stand up from KD REALLY REALLY FAST compared with anything else. Also try COB, you might see difference



Kevin "Q-3PO" O'Hara
SOE Associate Producer
SWG Community Relations Manager

Kasamatsu
Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:27 am
#3

eeeeeehhhhh...
It kinda works IMO.
When running Mokk missions I definitely have to heal myself less (I do them unarmored as a pure TKM for the practice) when I'm running a CoB loop, which means that it must be enhancing DA.
But it all really comes down to Melee Defense and Ranged Defense. The more melee defense you have (and the less accuracy the opponent has) the more chance you have of rolling a dodge, counter attack or block for a melee attack. The same goes for ranged defense and ranged attacks.
DA, dodge, counterattack, and block all work better for people with more defenses, yet again giving stackers another advantage. So I would still like to see it 'fixed.'
We can only hope the CU comes in a timely manner and that it actually fixes stuff.



TKM for Life.

- I support keeping & balancing the current combat system You can too

Whoever said "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" was right; it wouldn't be fair. I can kick your butt without the knife.
Mankind00
Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:58 am
#4

It works but not to the same effectivness as Dodge, Counterattack or Block do with their related proffesions. In pub10 there seemed to be a fix to Center of Beign for TK & it seemed to up it's effectivness to a better state though.


As far as seeing it work you normaly won't unarmed moves seem to cancle out a deffense move, however if you go fight on auto-attack & just watch your character & how (s)he reacts you normaly see it quiet a bit (or you could read your combat spam but that way isn't as much fun ^_^ ).


As I say though it's not as effective as those skills work for their own proffesion but it does work & has recently been uped, it's something I think we will see working better if they keep these type of deffensesafter the CU/R/B.



___________________________________
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Cartouche
Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:54 am
#5











But it all really comes down to Melee Defense and Ranged Defense. The more melee defense you have (and the less accuracy the opponent has) the more chance you have of rolling a dodge, counter attack or block for a melee attack. The same goes for ranged defense and ranged attacks.







That's not how it works. The higher yourmelee defense, the lower the chance that a melee attack will hit you. The same thing goes for ranged defense and ranged attacks.


Secondary defenses (dodge, block, counter-attack) and defensive acuity only come into play if an attack goes through your ranged or melee defense.


If you are using a pistol or a fencer weapon, for example, there's a second dice roll to determine whether you dodge the attack. In this case, the probability of dodging is determined by your dodge skill mod--not by your ranged defense or melee defense skill mods. The same principle applies to block when using a rifle or a pikeman weapon, and to counter-attack when using a carbine or a 2-handed weapon.


In the case of a TK and defensive acuity, the secondroll determines whether defensive acuity allows you to counter the attack. If so, then a third roll determines which secondary defence is applied (dodge, block, or counter-attack). The outcome is not affected by your dodge/block/counter-attack skill mods.


This is all in the FAQ, btw.

Message Edited by Cartouche on 01-03-2005 05:13 AM



Cartouche
Kasamatsu
Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:49 pm
#6

eeeeeehhhhh...
It kinda works IMO.
When running Mokk missions I definitely have to heal myself less (I do them unarmored as a pure TKM for the practice) when I'm running a CoB loop, which means that it must be enhancing DA.
But it all really comes down to Melee Defense and Ranged Defense. The more melee defense you have (and the less accuracy the opponent has) the more chance you have of rolling a dodge, counter attack or block for a melee attack. The same goes for ranged defense and ranged attacks.
DA, dodge, counterattack, and block all work better for people with more defenses, yet again giving stackers another advantage. So I would still like to see it 'fixed.'
We can only hope the CU comes in a timely manner and that it actually fixes stuff.



TKM for Life.

- I support keeping & balancing the current combat system You can too

Whoever said "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" was right; it wouldn't be fair. I can kick your butt without the knife.
Imspaced
Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:43 pm
#7

It seems to be a sort of stealth thing, it helps alot if you know where to look



Kevin "Q-3PO" O'Hara
SOE Associate Producer
SWG Community Relations Manager

Kasamatsu
Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:17 pm
#8



Cartouche wrote:

But it all really comes down to Melee Defense and Ranged Defense. The more melee defense you have (and the less accuracy the opponent has) the more chance you have of rolling a dodge, counter attack or block for a melee attack. The same goes for ranged defense and ranged attacks.


That's not how it works. The higher your melee defense, the lower the chance that a melee attack will hit you. The same thing goes for ranged defense and ranged attacks.

Secondary defenses (dodge, block, counter-attack) and defensive acuity only come into play if an attack goes through your ranged or melee defense.

If you are using a pistol or a fencer weapon, for example, there's a second dice roll to determine whether you dodge the attack. In this case, the probability of dodging is determined by your dodge skill mod--not by your ranged defense or melee defense skill mods. The same principle applies to block when using a rifle or a pikeman weapon, and to counter-attack when using a carbine or a 2-handed weapon.

In the case of a TK and defensive acuity, the second roll determines whether defensive acuity allows you to counter the attack. If so, then a third roll determines which secondary defence is applied (dodge, block, or counter-attack). The outcome is not affected by your dodge/block/counter-attack skill mods.

This is all in the FAQ, btw.

Message Edited by Cartouche on 01-03-2005 05:13 AM





Well then the FAQ is wrong, or your understanding of it is incorrect. What's the date on the FAQ, and which one are you reading?

-->Your defense and the opponents accuracy (including all relivant wweapon, distance, posture, and state modifyers) help determine how well you Dodge/CA/Block an attack.

Lets keep the example simple, dodge and ranged attacks:

I've tested this on TC when the blue frogs were out in a few different ways, using many data samples of varying duration.

Stack up a Master Fencer's Ranged Def to 125, turn on CoB, and shoot at the guy with a Master Carbineer/ Master BH... the ranged profession with the highest possible ranged weapon accuracy.

Take Master Fencer with no other ranged defense (lol they're still at 15+12+15+12+15 = 69) and shoot at them with a Master Carbineer/ MBH. The fencer will get hit more AND dodge less. If it were a simple "roll" then the fencer would get hit more, but the proportion of attacks dodged would remain the same
--------------------
Take a Ranged Def capped M Fencer and a Pure Master Carbineer. All other variables the same.

Take the Plain Fencer and the Plain Carbineer. The fencer will get hit more AND dodge less.

I've done checks with CoB, without CoB, with capped dodge, with intimidate... all sorts of stuff, and the data strongly suggests (statistics are nasty so I cant say proves without actually seeing the source equations) that my premise is accurate.

-->What I think you mean is that Dodge/CA/Block get calculated AFTER the defense "roll." And that is true, but it's not your simple D&D dice roll pre-algebra equation here. The defense is a variable in the Dodge/CA/Block "roll" (equation) as well. And it is has a geometric relationship to the Dodge Modifyer.

(and Jedi Saberblock, as I understand it, is linear... so it's pretty much just a ranged toughness that only varies due to variences in weapon damage range which at least adds some chance for a lucky big shot, but I'm no Jedi expert so I could be wrong here.)

The thing I have no idea about is how DA is calculated. I've run a couple different tests, and haven't been able to come up with any good hypothesis, let alone derive a possible equation to explain its behavior on a TKM. I do know that creatures have a natural DA value; Go start a new toon and shoot at some durnis. They'll Dodge, CA, and Block like mad in the beginning... but as you increase your accuracy they'll do it less and less. CoB definitely makes us TK get hit less, but whether it increases our defensive values, or our DA values I can't tell due to the unreliable nature of our combat spam, and the apparent impotence of DA in general, as compared to dodge.



TKM for Life.

- I support keeping & balancing the current combat system You can too

Whoever said "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" was right; it wouldn't be fair. I can kick your butt without the knife.
Ryutek
Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:44 pm
#9

Up to date info on DA (in the FAQ thread stickied above)

Defensive Acuity is a Teräs Käsi specific defense modifier that allows us a chance to Dodge, Block, OR Counterattack our opponent. Basically it works as follows:

Opponent attacks TKA. Opponent succesfully "hits" TKA. TKA rolls to see if they make a "save" (the game handles all "rolls"). If the roll is succesful then another roll occurs to see if the TKA Dodges, Blocks or Counterattacks.

For Other Professions the second roll never takes place. Their "save" type is predetermined by the weapon they are holding (Dodge for Fencers and Pistoleers, Block for Riflemen and Pikemen, and Counterattack for Carbineers and Swordsmen).



Ryutek

Former Teräs Käsi Correspondent, Circa 08/2004 to 02/2005

No longer holding out hope, SWG will never be the game we fought so hard for, that we believed so much in. Farewell friends.



[email protected]
Kasamatsu
Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:33 pm
#10

Odd, I remember reading an official post waaayyy back (I can't find the post to prove it, so I'll concede the point) that said dodge, ca and block get their own "roll." Perhaps it has been changed. However if they only get one to begin with that proves my overall point that Melee or Ranged defense has a direct connection to how sucessful dodge, ca and block are.



TKM for Life.

- I support keeping & balancing the current combat system You can too

Whoever said "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" was right; it wouldn't be fair. I can kick your butt without the knife.
Cartouche
Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:27 am
#11



Secondary defenses do have their own rolls, but only when the primary defenses fail.


Again, this is what happens in the case of a fencer or pistoleer:


- Roll 1


Determine whether theattack "hits".

The outcome of this roll is determined by melee defense or ranged defense (and by your opponent's accuracy).

If the attack misses, then you move on to the next round. If the attack hits, then you move on to Roll 2.


- Roll 2


Determines whether the fencer/pistoleer dodges.

The outcome of this roll is determined by the dodge skill mod.


Basically, dodge (and the other secondary defenses)come into play when melee defense or ranged defense fails. You cannot dodge/block/counter-attack unless your opponent's attack breaks through your primary defenses. Look at your combat log.


The higher your primary defenses, the less opportunities you will have to dodge.


In the case of a TK with DA, Roll 2 is replaced with the following:



- Roll 2 for TK


Determines whether DA is effective.

The outcome of this roll is determined by the DA skillmod and by COB (whether COB is worth its mind cost is another debate).

If DA is effective, move on to Roll 3. If not, move on to next round.


- Roll 3


Determines which secondary defense is used: dodge, block, orCA.

Message Edited by Cartouche on 01-06-2005 10:30 AM



Cartouche
Ryutek
Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:32 am
#12



Kasamatsu wrote:
Odd, I remember reading an official post waaayyy back (I can't find the post to prove it, so I'll concede the point) that said dodge, ca and block get their own "roll." Perhaps it has been changed. However if they only get one to begin with that proves my overall point that Melee or Ranged defense has a direct connection to how sucessful dodge, ca and block are.


I think what you are thinking of is the innate ability all players have that grants a chance to dodge, block, or counterattack. Without any other defences every player still has a (minute) chance to "evade" the hit.



Ryutek

Former Teräs Käsi Correspondent, Circa 08/2004 to 02/2005

No longer holding out hope, SWG will never be the game we fought so hard for, that we believed so much in. Farewell friends.



[email protected]
antares_Kauri
Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:00 pm
#13



Imspaced wrote:
I notice as a tka I stand up from KD REALLY REALLY FAST compared with anything else.



That's combat equilibrium.

antares



|Pikeman non-stop since July, 2003|
|combatUpgrade::alpha :: JTL::beta :: RotW::beta :: ToOW::beta|
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