Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: TKM and brawlers... the way it should be
Page 1 of 1
Kasamatsu
Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:20 am
#1
I'm long winded in typing so this isn't for those with short attention spans.
Every once in awhile I drop onto the boards to give my expert opinion on Brawling in the TKA world... Its time again for me to express my opinions on the current state of the game for brawlers.
It's nice to be near the top of the pile, and I still enjoy being a TKM (but damn those riflemen)... now onto business.
TKA's need a second damage type, flat out. As I stated months ago it should be restraint.
It seems everything now has massive kinetic energy and heat special protection now... lol I wonder why.
Its okay, a rancor can have light armor and 60% kinetic and I can still drop him, his uncle, and his mom in no time. But that's with food and buffs. The day is coming when Doc buffs will be nerfed; I won't go into this point anymore as it belongs on a different board.
Why restraint damage? Because TKA is in EU the supposed Jedi Hunter or something like that and what are all (most) the FS NPC's vun to?
Restraint is a very legitimate way of doing damage in RL Martial Arts. Counter-joint techniques and grappling are among the most effective and devastating schools of martial arts. It just screams our name.
(Oh yeah and there hasn't been a restraint weapon made for months after tangle pistols switched to stun)
How to implement it?
Our second biggest weakness (brawler-wise) after having only 1 damage type is only having AP1. Keep it that way.
Now this can be done in two ways:
+Having one or two new restraint-type attacks
For the first, having restraint-type attacks, you wouldn't be able to perform them with VK's on.
+Getting a new restraint damage weapon
Or just make an AP0 restraint weapon.
Either way will make it so that if the dev's feel that AP1 restraint is too much then it can stay AP0,
I kind of like the first better, as it keeps us unique... we don't need no stinkin new weapon!
Second it makes it so I can't spam restraint head hit all day on Imp skulls. And besides to grab someone as wiggly as a pistoleer, you need both hands free.
Take out Unarmed Combo 1 and 2... If I want to hit the body I'll do UH3 etc, leg, I'll do ULH, head (he he) I'll spam UHH.
Being able to attack any of the 3 pools at will is one of our biggest advantages... if I can do more damage and use probably less ham to get the pool I need, why would I attempt to hit all 3?
Put in /unarmedgrab 1 and /unarmedgrab 2.
Now onto my more debatable ideas: (some of you aren't gonna like this, sorry)
I love sneaking up behind someone and hitting KD2... he he but the whole KD/Dizzy thing is just too much.
Duels nowadays provided its unbuffed are simply who gets KD/Dizzy or Dizzy/Posture first.
That's it; once you're flopping on the floor you're finished.
It's too powerful because of two things...
+It usually prevents you from being attacked by knocked down opponent
+It doubles damage
It's too powerful because of those two being both at the same time.
Dizzy/KD needs to make you fall over once, maybe twice and that's it. Then the duel continues. Retain double damage, but make it so you only loose a couple seconds of attack time while lying on the floor. Problem solved.
The third nice thing about KD is they can't run away anymore (except pistoleers who seem to be un-knockable)
I can understand fencers having it, and want swordsmen and PIKEMEN TO HAVE SOME BETTER DEFENSES against KD as well. And good god, TKM's only have how much KD defense? I've no problem with fencers or someone having more, but not that much more...
Now back to restraint... it restrains... prevents movement. /unarmedgrab1 and /unarmedgrab2 should root a player to a spot for a brief time so they can't move, or not very quickly, or not without you being stuck to them so they cant get away.
Once you actually catch that darned rifleman, you don't want him running back to 64m. Your opponent can still fight and posture change, just not get away from you for a bit. Keep that rifleman at close range where in theory he should hit you less often.
For any of you who have actually used traps and not just ground thru them, you'd know there a trap that makes a beast +ROOTED+ and one that makes it +SNARED+. It's already in the game, just give TKA's the ability to do +ROOTED+ on other people at /unarmedgrab2.
Its not all powerful, as your opponent can still attack, and if the dev's want they can design it so the TKA is stuck for a couple seconds too, making him venerable to being ganged up on when using restraint attacks... just like it is in RL.
Perhaps the opponent is +rooted+ until you throw another special attack, so you can grab them and beat on em, but if you want to get fancy and UH3 you have to let go.
TKA Defenses:
I don't see Defensive Acuity doing a darned thing, but I have never seen a solid Dev response on what it is actually supposed to do. It doesn't show up in combat logs for sure. I sure as heck know it doesn't help like dodge does against those riflemen!
Does anyone remember reading once that TKM were almost impossible to knock down? (I just had to mention this again)
TKA vs. TKA shouldn't be who gets the KD off first; it should be lots of attempted KD's but few actually working on each other. The other state defenses are alright I'd say, not stellar at all, but fine for balance purposes.
TKM's should have great melee defense, great toughness, but not the best, just better than any single ranged combat profession. As for Ranged defenses, well here is our weakness, but if we do manage to get to the shooter, they should go down and stay there.
What about the other brawler professions?
Fencers have their stun baton, and I've seen some NICE Ackley ones! They've got great defenses, and that darned dodge. They seem to be doing better now than a couple months ago, especially when stacked with Pistoleer...
/sigh it's their 250 points. Another damage type here wouldn't hurt though, hell riflemen are getting heat.
Swordsmen got nerfed loosing their mind bleed. IMO Ranged bleeds are finally where they should be, but the Melee bleeds shouldn't have been nerfed.
But hey at least they get a decent damage type. And those scythes aren't too bad looking either.
Pikemen... poor poor pikemen. The dev's seem to have tried to give em something with the NS lances, but still only hardcore gamer pikemen can afford those, or loot them for the most pare, and there sure are a lot of them running around eh? Pikeman damage needs an upgrade... give them more. Yep they're slow, and a bit less accurate in general, but boy if that pike does hit... It should hurt! I recommend an AP3 weapon for them bad boys as well.
PLEASE FIX BLOCK! 50% reduction isn't enough with their utter lack of other defenses.
Pikemen area attacks are also cool when they work, (but suck if they're hit at the wrong time) I've yet to see a pikeman in PvP march into a group of opponents and perform an Area KD. Make their Posture change attacks more effective... If a TKM gets KD 6/10 times on a given target, the pikeman should get it 8 or 9 times out of 10… provided the blow actually hits.
Pikemen should have more toughness as well. For any of you who have used a Bo staff, you know why... you hit yourself pretty darned hard sometimes. Pikemen need to be tough!
Master Brawler lost warcry2! MB is once again an extinct profession... make it more worthwhile... give more mods. Make it worth spending those extra 43 points on it. A large melee defense bonus is needed here, not it's current +5. Lunge2 is great, Berserk 2 is ABSOLUTELY USELESS. How about a special weapon cert here one each for Pike, Sword, and Fencers? Or maybe a new fencer-only, sword-only, and pike-only attack?
Duel swords for fencers would be a great certification to put in for Mater Fencer/ Master Brawler. Now the Dev's whine about how its too hard to code… don't believe em. There are ways around it. Dropping the fencer speed cap to 0.5 while wielding the "duel sword weapon," or some incentive like that would be neat. Now the game would see the set of two swords just as one weapon… in other words you cant just equip a tusken toothpick in one hand and a stun baton in the other, you only get to equip a crafted pair which act as one item. You'd just get cool new animations and a couple new attacks.
That's all I'm writing for now, but once we get out of the "beta" phase of the game I have suggestions for animations as I have already posted before a while back. Hell I'll even go out to SOE and model for motion capture if they want me to.
Agree or disagree all you like, as long as it stimulates new, original thinking… the dev's seem to be out of ideas sometimes.
Kasamatsu
Every once in awhile I drop onto the boards to give my expert opinion on Brawling in the TKA world... Its time again for me to express my opinions on the current state of the game for brawlers.
It's nice to be near the top of the pile, and I still enjoy being a TKM (but damn those riflemen)... now onto business.
TKA's need a second damage type, flat out. As I stated months ago it should be restraint.
It seems everything now has massive kinetic energy and heat special protection now... lol I wonder why.
Its okay, a rancor can have light armor and 60% kinetic and I can still drop him, his uncle, and his mom in no time. But that's with food and buffs. The day is coming when Doc buffs will be nerfed; I won't go into this point anymore as it belongs on a different board.
Why restraint damage? Because TKA is in EU the supposed Jedi Hunter or something like that and what are all (most) the FS NPC's vun to?
Restraint is a very legitimate way of doing damage in RL Martial Arts. Counter-joint techniques and grappling are among the most effective and devastating schools of martial arts. It just screams our name.
(Oh yeah and there hasn't been a restraint weapon made for months after tangle pistols switched to stun)
How to implement it?
Our second biggest weakness (brawler-wise) after having only 1 damage type is only having AP1. Keep it that way.
Now this can be done in two ways:
+Having one or two new restraint-type attacks
For the first, having restraint-type attacks, you wouldn't be able to perform them with VK's on.
+Getting a new restraint damage weapon
Or just make an AP0 restraint weapon.
Either way will make it so that if the dev's feel that AP1 restraint is too much then it can stay AP0,
I kind of like the first better, as it keeps us unique... we don't need no stinkin new weapon!
Second it makes it so I can't spam restraint head hit all day on Imp skulls. And besides to grab someone as wiggly as a pistoleer, you need both hands free.
Take out Unarmed Combo 1 and 2... If I want to hit the body I'll do UH3 etc, leg, I'll do ULH, head (he he) I'll spam UHH.
Being able to attack any of the 3 pools at will is one of our biggest advantages... if I can do more damage and use probably less ham to get the pool I need, why would I attempt to hit all 3?
Put in /unarmedgrab 1 and /unarmedgrab 2.
Now onto my more debatable ideas: (some of you aren't gonna like this, sorry)
I love sneaking up behind someone and hitting KD2... he he but the whole KD/Dizzy thing is just too much.
Duels nowadays provided its unbuffed are simply who gets KD/Dizzy or Dizzy/Posture first.
That's it; once you're flopping on the floor you're finished.
It's too powerful because of two things...
+It usually prevents you from being attacked by knocked down opponent
+It doubles damage
It's too powerful because of those two being both at the same time.
Dizzy/KD needs to make you fall over once, maybe twice and that's it. Then the duel continues. Retain double damage, but make it so you only loose a couple seconds of attack time while lying on the floor. Problem solved.
The third nice thing about KD is they can't run away anymore (except pistoleers who seem to be un-knockable)
I can understand fencers having it, and want swordsmen and PIKEMEN TO HAVE SOME BETTER DEFENSES against KD as well. And good god, TKM's only have how much KD defense? I've no problem with fencers or someone having more, but not that much more...
Now back to restraint... it restrains... prevents movement. /unarmedgrab1 and /unarmedgrab2 should root a player to a spot for a brief time so they can't move, or not very quickly, or not without you being stuck to them so they cant get away.
Once you actually catch that darned rifleman, you don't want him running back to 64m. Your opponent can still fight and posture change, just not get away from you for a bit. Keep that rifleman at close range where in theory he should hit you less often.
For any of you who have actually used traps and not just ground thru them, you'd know there a trap that makes a beast +ROOTED+ and one that makes it +SNARED+. It's already in the game, just give TKA's the ability to do +ROOTED+ on other people at /unarmedgrab2.
Its not all powerful, as your opponent can still attack, and if the dev's want they can design it so the TKA is stuck for a couple seconds too, making him venerable to being ganged up on when using restraint attacks... just like it is in RL.
Perhaps the opponent is +rooted+ until you throw another special attack, so you can grab them and beat on em, but if you want to get fancy and UH3 you have to let go.
TKA Defenses:
I don't see Defensive Acuity doing a darned thing, but I have never seen a solid Dev response on what it is actually supposed to do. It doesn't show up in combat logs for sure. I sure as heck know it doesn't help like dodge does against those riflemen!
Does anyone remember reading once that TKM were almost impossible to knock down? (I just had to mention this again)
TKA vs. TKA shouldn't be who gets the KD off first; it should be lots of attempted KD's but few actually working on each other. The other state defenses are alright I'd say, not stellar at all, but fine for balance purposes.
TKM's should have great melee defense, great toughness, but not the best, just better than any single ranged combat profession. As for Ranged defenses, well here is our weakness, but if we do manage to get to the shooter, they should go down and stay there.
What about the other brawler professions?
Fencers have their stun baton, and I've seen some NICE Ackley ones! They've got great defenses, and that darned dodge. They seem to be doing better now than a couple months ago, especially when stacked with Pistoleer...
/sigh it's their 250 points. Another damage type here wouldn't hurt though, hell riflemen are getting heat.
Swordsmen got nerfed loosing their mind bleed. IMO Ranged bleeds are finally where they should be, but the Melee bleeds shouldn't have been nerfed.
But hey at least they get a decent damage type. And those scythes aren't too bad looking either.
Pikemen... poor poor pikemen. The dev's seem to have tried to give em something with the NS lances, but still only hardcore gamer pikemen can afford those, or loot them for the most pare, and there sure are a lot of them running around eh? Pikeman damage needs an upgrade... give them more. Yep they're slow, and a bit less accurate in general, but boy if that pike does hit... It should hurt! I recommend an AP3 weapon for them bad boys as well.
PLEASE FIX BLOCK! 50% reduction isn't enough with their utter lack of other defenses.
Pikemen area attacks are also cool when they work, (but suck if they're hit at the wrong time) I've yet to see a pikeman in PvP march into a group of opponents and perform an Area KD. Make their Posture change attacks more effective... If a TKM gets KD 6/10 times on a given target, the pikeman should get it 8 or 9 times out of 10… provided the blow actually hits.
Pikemen should have more toughness as well. For any of you who have used a Bo staff, you know why... you hit yourself pretty darned hard sometimes. Pikemen need to be tough!
Master Brawler lost warcry2! MB is once again an extinct profession... make it more worthwhile... give more mods. Make it worth spending those extra 43 points on it. A large melee defense bonus is needed here, not it's current +5. Lunge2 is great, Berserk 2 is ABSOLUTELY USELESS. How about a special weapon cert here one each for Pike, Sword, and Fencers? Or maybe a new fencer-only, sword-only, and pike-only attack?
Duel swords for fencers would be a great certification to put in for Mater Fencer/ Master Brawler. Now the Dev's whine about how its too hard to code… don't believe em. There are ways around it. Dropping the fencer speed cap to 0.5 while wielding the "duel sword weapon," or some incentive like that would be neat. Now the game would see the set of two swords just as one weapon… in other words you cant just equip a tusken toothpick in one hand and a stun baton in the other, you only get to equip a crafted pair which act as one item. You'd just get cool new animations and a couple new attacks.
That's all I'm writing for now, but once we get out of the "beta" phase of the game I have suggestions for animations as I have already posted before a while back. Hell I'll even go out to SOE and model for motion capture if they want me to.
Agree or disagree all you like, as long as it stimulates new, original thinking… the dev's seem to be out of ideas sometimes.
Kasamatsu
ITK5
Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:47 am
#2
Nice Post.
I agree on alot of your ideas.
UnarmedGrab would be really awesome!
IM currently Master Brawler too and keeping it.
hopefully they will improve on it .
And you should benfit if U master a profession instead of dabbling..Master Brawler doesnt seem to give you that MUCH esp since they Nerfed Warcry2.
I agree on alot of your ideas.
UnarmedGrab would be really awesome!
IM currently Master Brawler too and keeping it.
hopefully they will improve on it .
And you should benfit if U master a profession instead of dabbling..Master Brawler doesnt seem to give you that MUCH esp since they Nerfed Warcry2.
atone48732
Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:50 am
#3
Change unarmedlunge into a grappling hold
you have a move there that is already a part of our profession so all they have to do is tweak unarmed lunge into a grapple move and move it from novice brawler to power tecs 4
Ryutek
Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:53 am
#4
atone48732 wrote:
you have a move there that is already a part of our profession so all they have to do is tweak unarmed lunge into a grapple move and move it from novice brawler to power tecs 4
The problem with this is that you take away a move from a Novice and do not give them anything in return. It is always better to change a move that is in the tree where you want it than it is to move a special from one place in the tree to another.
Ryutek
Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:02 am
#5
I just chose a few points to respond to 
Kasamatsu wrote:
TKA's need a second damage type, flat out. As I stated months ago it should be restraint.
It seems everything now has massive kinetic energy and heat special protection now... lol I wonder why.
Its okay, a rancor can have light armor and 60% kinetic and I can still drop him, his uncle, and his mom in no time. But that's with food and buffs. The day is coming when Doc buffs will be nerfed; I won't go into this point anymore as it belongs on a different board.
Why restraint damage? Because TKA is in EU the supposed Jedi Hunter or something like that and what are all (most) the FS NPC's vun to?
Restraint is a very legitimate way of doing damage in RL Martial Arts. Counter-joint techniques and grappling are among the most effective and devastating schools of martial arts. It just screams our name.
(Oh yeah and there hasn't been a restraint weapon made for months after tangle pistols switched to stun)
I'll agree that this wouldbe feasible from that perspective, but lets take a look at why we only have one damage type:
1) We have Meditation - that is a very powerful bonus that we have that no one else does.
2)We havethe ability to target any HAM pool. I know BH's can as well, but that is through changing weapons (with the exception
of Eye Shot). We do not have to do anything other than use a different special.
3) Because we are Unarmed - this argument works for both sides actually
+Having one or two new restraint-type attacks
For the first, having restraint-type attacks, you wouldn't be able to perform them with VK's on.
If this were to happen (as inwe get a newdamage type) I would much rather see it this way than a new weapon.
Now back to restraint... it restrains... prevents movement. /unarmedgrab1 and /unarmedgrab2 should root a player to a spot for a brief time so they can't move, or not very quickly, or not without you being stuck to them so they cant get away.
Once you actually catch that darned rifleman, you don't want him running back to 64m. Your opponent can still fight and posture change, just not get away from you for a bit. Keep that rifleman at close range where in theory he should hit you less often.
For any of you who have actually used traps and not just ground thru them, you'd know there a trap that makes a beast +ROOTED+ and one that makes it +SNARED+. It's already in the game, just give TKA's the ability to do +ROOTED+ on other people at /unarmedgrab2.
Its not all powerful, as your opponent can still attack, and if the dev's want they can design it so the TKA is stuck for a couple seconds too, making him venerable to being ganged up on when using restraint attacks... just like it is in RL.
Perhaps the opponent is +rooted+ until you throw another special attack, so you can grab them and beat on em, but if you want to get fancy and UH3 you have to let go.
I remember a comment that was made by TH that said Dizzy and KD as we know it would be going away eventually because it prevents the opponent from being able to attack. I think the same thing would happen here. I like the idea though. Something thatkeeps them in place for 2 or 3 seconds I think would not be overpowered, and would allow us to make certain they stayed close enough tous.
atone48732
Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:54 am
#6
I see what you mean. Lunge needs to stay where it is I agree since you put it that way
but. I see the person about me had an idea about a move that stops an opponent from moving for 2-3 seconds and it got me thinking
what about instead of KD2 we get a "takedown" or tackle maneuver(No dizzy enough of this crap with the dizzy) that puts an opponent on the ground for a short amount of time. It can help slow down kiting but it wont stop the chance of the person being able to fight back cause it will only last maybe 2 seconds or something like that
Message Edited by atone48732 on 04-01-2004 07:55 AM
Ryutek
Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:55 am
#7
atone48732 wrote:
what about instead of KD2 we get a "takedown" or tackle maneuver(No dizzy enough of this crap with the dizzy) that puts an opponent on the ground for a short amount of time. It can help slow down kiting but it wont stop the chance of the person being able to fight back cause it will only last maybe 2 seconds or something like that
Message Edited by atone48732 on 04-01-2004 07:55 AM
I like the idea, and I think I responded to that in my other post above, if not I'll have to go back and make sure I did
atone48732
Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:58 am
#8
didn't see that sorry
I skimmed the posts and saw the 2-3 seconds thing and thought of a takedown or throw maneuver(like judo) that would help us but not become overpowering cause of dizzy and it would only slow them down not make them defenseless(and thats all the other classes want they want to be able to fight back once we KD them)
this might help that
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