Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: My Top 8 Moves (LONG)
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Eugee
Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:34 pm
#1
While I'm a very good read (to myself) I realized halfway through this it's too long, so I just want to warn you this is a very long post, I was bored and working out my Top 8 moves.
I just made Novice TKA last night (technically 3 AM this morning) mostly with 70% kinetic ubese (still have to get it sliced, praying for encumberance), 1.9K doctor buffs, grouped with my carrion spat faithfully guarding the mission terminal, and pushing Berserk1 a LOT on Quenkers with my 1.5/39-151 VK (sliced). Well I'm at Power 1 and Striking 2 now, and this is sooo much fun. However I've been analyizing all the moves we get, and I'm kind of stuck in a pickle. I love the FAQ and I've used it heavily, but I've always been one to test things out for myself. Now please bear with me, I already talked my girlfriend's ear off about this and I'm just looking for other feedback since she just kind of agreed with me and let me talk myself into various things.
One thing that has become readily apparent to me is I'm running out of hotkey spots. As I'm already a Master Doctor, a lot of healing stuff is already in there. Basically my "main" panel is comprised of three sections of 8 hotkeys. F1-F4 + sF1-sF4 are my TKA hotkeys. I try to keep everything for the TKA/combat there. I can push those keys without looking at the keyboard with my left hand on the home row. (Quick note, I play EQ-style keyboard, ESDF movement, and my hotkeys are actually 1-4 + s1-s4. Anyway.)
The second bank is my doctor stuff, heal self, stimpacks, poison/disease cures, heal state, first aid, etc. Oh, and harvestMeat macro. I need lots of avian and herbivore meat. The third bank has like burst run, armor on/off macros, Meditate (on Shift-9, when I push Shift I start walking, then the 9 to meditate), backpacks, and other stuff I'm not in a hurry to push.
So back to the TKA bank. 8 spots, and Blind, BodyHit1, Combo1, Combo2, Dizzy1, HeadHit1, Hit1, Hit2, Hit3, Knockdown1, Knockdown2, LegHit1, Lunge1, SpinAttack1, SpinAttack2, Stun1, Warcry1, Intimidate1, and Berserk1 as choices (eventually). That's 19 choices for 8 spots, but then considering I won't be using more than one Combo or SpinAttack, I can shave off 5, down to 14 moves. I can say with confidence that Berserk1 is getting the boot now that I'm finished with The Worst Basic Grind Ever™, so I'm down to 13 moves. Still need to shave 5 out. That's brings me to the math geekery part (long wait, eh?)
MATH GEEKERY
So I'm using the numbers from the FAQ, I didn't see any disagreement on their accuracy, and they seemed right to me in my brief experience. I made an Excel spreadsheet of them all and then started up some formulas. To make sure I'm right in my interpretation of the FAQ movelist, Time is the multiplier your normal swing recovery suffers. So if you swing every 1.0 seconds, and you do Hit3, you will swing again in 4 seconds, instead of 1. That's my interpretation. Damage is the multiplier your hit is processed through. If you typically hit for 400 with normal moves (that was me at TKA 0000), and I through Hit2, I can expect to hit for up to 1200. (This checks out, too.) I shortened Health/Action/Mind to just one column "HAM", since they are all the same. This appears to be multiples of what UnarmedHit1 drains--I drain about 10 (that's the Mind I see drain) with Hit1, and about 15 with Hit2. So that seems fairly accurate also.
So after all this prep talk, here's the figures I came up with and how. I took the Damage multiplier and divided it by the Time multiplier, to come up with a Damage Per Second. Techically it's a damage MULTIPLIER per second, but it worked. I hit normal for 400, with UnarmedHit1 I hit 2x as hard in 1.5x the delay, so it's a 1.33x DPS boost. So if I was doing 400 dps, now I'm pulling about 600 dps. Sweet.
With that done for each move, then I checked the Damage (multipler) Per HAM. For every 1x of HAM drain, how much multiplier are you getting back? I divided the Damage by the HAM drain for that, to find the most EFFICIENT move (not necessarily fastest) in terms of HAM drain. If the drain to your Mind (the only move drain I see while doc buffed) can be regened as fast as a TKA regens it, disregard the efficiency part. But I take a LOT my Mind drain from my own specials than I do from my target. (Especially in 70% kinetic helm.) So that revealed which moves were the most efficient use of my HAM.
Looking down the list, I saw that Hit1, Hit2, and Hit3 received the same damage multiplier per HAM drained. At 1x Hit1 Drain, Hit1 got 2x dmg. At 1.5x Hit1's drain, Hit2 got 3x damage. At 2x Hit1's drain, Hit3 got 4x damage. So they burn HAM at the same rate for the damage they give back to you. So which one to use? Well in that case, if the HAM efficiency is the same, I want the one that does damage FASTER. This is why I'm posting for opinions (hopefully not flamed for speaking against what the FAQ suggests). FYI, Hit 1, 2, & 3 are the most efficient damage/HAM drain. 1 & 3 both have the same damage rate. Hit3 does twice the damage of Hit1, but it also has twice the Time multiplier, so they stay even. 2 actually has 1.5x the damage of Hit1, but 1.67x the delay, so it's actually LESS damage per second being done. The efficiency is the same, just does damage slower than Hit 1 or 3. Since Hit3 has a chance to blind (according to FAQ, I don't have it), I think that's the move I'll be using eventually. (Please don't flame me if this is off, I'm just examining moves and speculating based off the numbers I see.)
Outside of the Hits, the rest of the moves offer other bonuses. In order to place value so that the move with the best overall DPS & DPH is on top, I averaged the ratings together for the Move Score. (Couldn't think of anything else.)
Listing the moves by score, with their special effect after:
(Move --- Time(t) --- Damage(d) --- HAM(h) --- DPS(ds) --- DPH(dh) --- Score(*) --- Special)
Hit1 --- 1.5t --- 2.0d --- 1.0h --- 1.33ds --- 2.0dh --- 1.67* --- n/a
Hit3 --- 3.0t --- 4.0d --- 2.0h --- 1.33ds --- 2.0dh --- 1.67* --- (Blind?)
Hit2 --- 2.5t --- 3.0d --- 1.5h --- 1.20ds --- 2.0dh --- 1.60* --- n/a
Body1 --- 2.0t --- 2.5d --- 1.75h --- 1.25ds --- 1.43dh --- 1.34* --- (target Health)
Leg1 --- 2.0t --- 2.5d --- 1.75h --- 1.25ds --- 1.43dh --- 1.34* --- (target Action)
Head1 --- 2.0t --- 2.5d --- 1.75h --- 1.25ds --- 1.43dh --- 1.34* --- (target Mind)
SpinAttack2 --- 3.0t --- 3.0d --- 2.0h --- 1.00ds --- 1.5dh --- 1.25* --- (aoe attack)Combo1 --- 2.0t --- 2.0d --- 1.5h --- 1.00ds --- 1.33dh --- 1.17* --- (target HAM)
SpinAttack1 --- 2.0t --- 2.0d --- 1.5h --- 1.00ds --- 1.33dh --- 1.17* --- (aoe attack)
Combo2 --- 4.0t --- 3.0d --- 2.0h --- 0.75ds --- 1.5dh --- 1.13* --- (target HAM)
Blind1 --- 2.0t --- 1.5d --- 1.5d --- 0.75ds --- 1.0dh --- 0.88* --- (blind)
Dizzy1 --- 2.0t --- 1.5d --- 1.5d --- 0.75ds --- 1.0dh --- 0.88* --- (dizzy)
Knockdown2 --- 2.0t --- 1.5d --- 1.5d --- 0.75ds --- 1.0dh --- 0.88* --- (knockdown + dizzy)
Knockdown1 --- 1.5t --- 1.0d --- 1.0h --- 0.67ds --- 1.0dh --- 0.83* --- (knockdown)
Lunge1 --- 1.5t --- 1.0d --- 1.0h --- 0.67ds --- 1.0dh --- 0.83* --- (posture down + reach)
Stun1 --- 2.0t --- 1.25d --- 1.5h --- 0.63ds --- 0.83dh --- 0.73* --- (stun)
Normal --- 1.0t --- 1.0d --- 0.0h --- 1.0ds --- (div/0!)dh --- (div/0!)* --- n/a
I add normal just for comparison. It's infinite damage/HAM, so impossible to score really. If you set the HAM drain to 0.01 then it's 50.5 score. I actually use a LOT of normal swings, as it is the most efficient use of HAM. Specials are for setting up effects and boosting your DPS. So with all these numbers, here's MY take on the moves, covering the non-damage ones first:
Warcry1: I'm not a Master Brawler, don't care about Warcry2. I'm not sure about this move really. In PvP maybe it rocks, but for me I find that it only nets me a couple free swings, and it's just another key to push. I'm not saying "No way!", but at the same time I don't recall ever using it past Unarmed1 till I decided I liked Intimidate WAY more. Maybe list I guess.
Intimidate1: No-brainer easy pick. Dropping the opponent to 1/3 damage is supreme. I wish I had the longer duration, but I'm not getting Master Brawler. Lands reliably well, and I open every solo fight with this move. With multiple targets I skip it and lay into the spin attacks. Actually I don't lead the fight with this. If you haven't turned attack on yet then Intimidate won't go off. I open with Stun1 usually, then Intimidate1. Makes Top 8 without consideration.
Berserk1: While I owe my Novice title to this little beauty for making my non-certified VK not suck so bad, I'm not keeping it around. (New players that didn't read elsewhere, the fastest VK you can find + Berzerk1 is a great way to get to Novice TKA. Hitting for 400+ now, Berserk doesn't offer much to me, especially at the expense of my specials. I'll always remember you Berserk1, but get out of my Top 8!
Lunge1: Not a Master Brawler again, so can't comment on 2. This is in the Top8 though. Running targets peeve me good, and this is my best chance to stop them in their tracks long enough to finish them. It's honestly nota spectacular move, but I chased enough perleks around near death just today to solidify my desire to keep this move handy for runners. (I don't PvP can't comment there.)
Knockdown1 & Knockdown 2: I'd be a moron to not take this one, right? I don't have it yet, but I can't wait for it. Obviously Knockdown2 is going to be my bread-n-butter opener for every fight, Knockdown1 can be the placeholder till I have it. In the Top 8 easy.
SpinAttack1 & SpinAttack2: I currently use SpinAttack1 a lot. I hunt a lot of perleks on Lok for avian meat, and the easiest way to fight them is Stun1 the biggest one, then drag the pack away from the lair and start AOE attacking till they all die, then finish the big one off. Sometimes I even just stay at the lair, but many times you have to be ready to run down and Lunge1 runners. SpinAttack2 is better than 1 hands down, and very useful. Welcome to the Top 8.
Body1, Leg1, Head1: I actually like these moves, they are the third most efficient attacks, arguably more since they are targetted. (#1 being normal attacks, no HAM drain) Unarmed hits are great, and while I feel like Health is hit like 50% of the time, Action 40%, and Mind 10%, there are many times where I find myself going, "C'mon, hit the Action pool one more time dangit!" Or I get a lucky shot to Action and it starts running, and my Lunge1 keeps tagging their Health. Lunge1 for the posture down + Leg1 drops them right away! Anyway, I really like these moves. I've killed a few mobs exclusively with these, and I found it very effective and fast, but the drain on Mind was bad, admittedly.I agree they serve best as finishers, because spamming specials drains your Mind, unless you're a spice fiend/brandy addict. Honestly I'd like all three in the Top 8, but that's up in the air for now. I don't recall ever getting a mobs Mind so low I was wishing I had Striking IV, so I could live without Head1, Leg1 I can't say I really need... but Body1 I use a LOT at the end of fights. Head1 is out of the running, Body1 is in, and Leg1 is a maybe.
Dizzy1: Can't really comment on it. I don't find a lot of humanoids, because they don't spawn any more while you pound the lair, and that's not productive for XP. Since Knockdown2 will have Dizzy with it, I'm not sure how much I'll need this. If I DID get attacked by humanoids (I'm not a stealth ninja after all) this would be a really nice to ensure a knocked down humanoid stays down. On the maybe list.
Blind1: I tend to agree with the FAQ on this one. It's not that I don't like lowering the accuracy of a creature, but I opened with Stun1, then I Intimidated it. If that's not enough to make the fight go well, then I'm in trouble. Plus of my first 3 moves, that would be only 2 doing damage (and Stun1 is the weakest overall move damagewise), and not once have I said, "Whew, this fight is cake now that I've blinded it!" I feel safe saying Intimidation1 > Stun1 > Blind1, and safe leaving blind out of the list. If this is a mistake let me know please.
Stun1: This has been my opening move since I got it, though probably more for the animation than the effect. I don't know how much being stunned slows attacks down. Still, slowing is slowing, and it's a quick, fast opener. On the Top 8 for now, getting crowded in there though.
Hit1, Hit2, Hit3: Everyone says Hit2 is where it's at (that I've asked), but I'm not so sure. By the numbers Hit1 & Hit3 have the real presence. I'll swing with Hit110 times in the same time it takes to swing 6 times with Hit2. Assuming I hit for 400ish a shot normally, I'm looking at 8000 damage with Hit1 in the same time I do 7200 damage with Hit2. They burned the same amount of HAM per point of damage done, but Hit2 needs longer to reach the same damage output. Now when I get to Hit3 that'll be my move, if it has a chance to blind, ending the Blind1 debate. Plus it's the idea that if a fast weapon and slow weapon have the same damage output over time, take the slower one (i.e. Hit3) because if you need 4 hits with the fast attack and 2 with the slow attack for the same damage, then you are more likely to score 2 hits in a row than 4 hits. Over a large sample parse, it would average out, but smacking mobs for 4x damage doesn't lead to long fights. 
Stun1 + Knockdown2 + Hit3 seems like a nice opener to me, followed with occasional Intimidates and maybe some Hit3s or Body1s as the fight goes on.
Stun1 + Knockdown2 + Hit3 seems like a nice opener to me, followed with occasional Intimidates and maybe some Hit3s or Body1s as the fight goes on.Comb1 & Combo2. I only saw mention that these were bad in the FAQ. My question (since I don't have them), is the damage PER HAM? Say I hit for 1500 with Combo2. Is that 1500 to each HAM, or 500 to each. I'm guessing it's the latter, in which case it really would be useless. Regardless, it's dumb that Combo1 is better overall then Combo2. (Granted I think Hit1 < Hit2 < Hit3 would make more sense than Hit1 > Hit2 < Hit3. I'd like to hear more about these--but I'm assuming they are out right off the bat.
Well.. the "I'm not sure" list ended up at Warcry1, LegHit1, and Dizzy1. The sure-picks are Intimidate1, Lunge1, Knockdown2, SpinAttack2, BodyHit1, Stun1, and Hit3. Room for only one of those three. Knockdown2 rates the same for damage output as Dizzy1, so even it doesn't dizzy them on the knockdown, couldn't you just hit em again? I know it will say "You failed to change the target's posture..." but won't it still try to dizzy them again? For that reason I'm shying away from Dizzy1. LegHit1 is nice, but BodyHIt1 is honestly the important finisher. So that leaves Warcry1. If I can just spam Knockdown2 for the dizzy effect, then Warcry1 is even better for extending the prone-fest beating. So unless I'm wrong about spamming KD2--I'll go Warcry1.
Well, I wrote a small book here. Hopefully this starts a good discussion about the issues, and some new TKAs got the same exploration of the class that I just gave myself. Or maybe I'll just get flamed for typing fast and being wordy. I've got my tenative Top 8 worked out, so I'm happy.
Stroikabot
Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:25 pm
#2
Good post. Covers all the bases. (At least that i can think of) I don't PvP so i tend to use KD2 then intimidate. Then I usually toss a hit2 (not master yet) in there (or as many until i get one to hit in the health bar) sometimes a stun. That's about it. For humaniod npc's KD2, and if by chance the dizzy didn't catch, then dizzy. and hit2 a few times....usually want em dead b4 they get up. What do people think for this set? I'm always looking to improve.
Eugee
Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:14 am
#4
Hmmm. Guess it would make sense to lead with Knockdown2 instead of Stun1. For most fights I think Knockdown + Stun + Intimidate would be a great lead-off attack. Get them on the ground, slow their attack rate, and cripple their damage output before they got up. Honestly, Warcry would be the logical move next, to keep them down another 10 seconds, right? But whether or not I have Warcry1 loaded depends on my Knockdown2 dizzy question. So here's two things I'd like to find out from more experienced TKAs:
1. If Knockdown2 doesn't land the dizzy state, can you just hit Knockdown2 again on a downed opponent? I know it's not going to land the knockdown part again--but will it still try to dizzy them?
2. I'm planning to use Hit1 till I get Hit3, what are opinions on that--and can anyone confirm that Hit3 carries blind state with it?
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