Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: a NEW Solution to Ranged vs. Melee Damage
After trying to consol my commando friend (who was so upset by the recent change commando-weapons-are-now-rifles-you-have-to-use-within-15-m 'fix' that he's going to stop playing SWG), I thought of a possible solution for the ranged vs melee damage problem. Correct me if I'm wrong but, currently to sort of balance things out, if you have a rifle equipped you take x3 damage from melee (or x 1.5 for a carbine). This is a drag for Commando's who have had to master brawling yet all their weapons count as rifles. So what about this ... instead of having the damage modifier be based on what weapon your holding, why not use a simple equation of ;
( Attackers highest melee level ) - (Defenders highest melee level) = Damage modifier (with a minimum of 1)
If this is limited to just the basic levels in melee skills, it means that the largest damage modifier would be X 4 - which seems startling until you think of it in terms of some one who have never been in a fist fight before vs. a professional Boxer.. This would help the advanced classes who had to take melee but don't really use it (Smuggler and Commando) as well as Melee classes - and still allow other classes a way to prevent being over powered by the melee only guys (by learning some melee fighting). This even allows the melee damage between players and MOBs to be managed evenly as well. The only people it leaves out are Bounty Hunters, who don't need to have any melee ranks and have very few skill points left over.
It also does something which is seldom talked about in MMORPGs - it reflects real life. After 6 years of studying various Martial Arts the one constant is that someone who is more trained is going to be able to do more damage to someone who has less training. I'm sure I'm missing something and I'm sure that someone here will point it out for me - otherwise what do you think of this as a way to balance Ranged vs melee damage ?
Interesting idea, but it's not just commandos who have a 'gripe' about the damage modifier when having a ranged weapon equipped. I'm not so sure carbineers and riflemen would like to hear that they have to also be brawlers to benefit from this.
It might be better to come up with a way to help all ranged classes with something like combat experience that gives them a 'weapon block' that will stun the attacker for 3 seconds.. so they can start distancing themselves?
Trentmare wrote:
It might be better to come up with a way to help all ranged classes with something like combat experience that gives them a 'weapon block' that will stun the attacker for 3 seconds.. so they can start distancing themselves?
Don't know how this would float. Us melee folks have asked for something like this to work for out benefit and never got it. We always have problems with ranged folks running away. There were many threads that gave the idea of a melee move that would stun our enemy and allow us to close distance. It's not a bad idea but I don't think it will ever get implemented.
When you discuss the ranged vs. melee distance issues each side will want a counter attack - melee will want some method of closing the distance and ranged will want some method of increasing distance.
That was preciously why I didn't deal with that issue, it's a different argument altogether. I'm not trying to solve the issue of use getting into hand to hand with ranged weapon users. I'm only suggesting a way to deal with the damage better once we get there.
Since the beginning, the Dev team has been saying that Melee classes would be able to out damage ranged classes when in hand to hand. This is not the case, so they add a 'fix' where you take 3 times as much damage from hand to hand because your holding a rifle. That doesn't seem right to me.
My idea is to address the damage issue first because a) the way I suggest makes much more sense then the current 'fix', b) this gives the Dev team more control over melee damage to everyone, c) Doesn't give one side an advantage over the other.
One problem at a time :-)
You obviously put some thought behind it and it will sound great to any ranged person who has brawler skills. It will especially sound good to commandos and smugglers as you mentioned.
Commandos have the potential to do an insane amount of damage. If you take away the potential for melee folks to do a lot of damage to them when they are holding a powerful weapon you are seriously nerfing melee in my opinion.
Yes commandos have to be with 15 meters for their specials to work. Keep in mind that melee has to be insideCommando range. So when approaching a Commando, meleehas to go through that point where he can be one shot.
Most professions have a weakness. Ranged professions are weak when they are within melee range. Melee folks are useless outside of melee range. AT-ST has one weakness and that's a commando. I personally think that each profession needs to have a weakness and a profession that they are vulnerable to.
Speaking the realism argument, I don't think you can defend yourself as well if you are holding a large and heavy weapon. I think it would be pretty hard to block a punch or duch from a swordwhile holding a gun with two hands.This game is not based on realism. We know that in real life a person can't shoot a gun over his shoulder and be accurate. We also know that a person couldn't dodge bullets.
I'm sure there are a lot of folks that would agree with your proposal butI don'tthink it willbe the melee folks.
Ericinthemts wrote:
After 6 years of studying various Martial Arts the one constant is that someone who is more trained is going to be able to do more damage to someone who has less training.
It took you six years to figure that out?
I did not say it took me 6 years to figure that out. What I said was that was the one of constant I saw. However I will say it only took me 5 seconds to figure out that your an ass.
This issue isn't not exactly all that complext but it revolves about 3 or so components.
The orginal problem might have started at the suggested change to comandos flame throwers and heavy weapons to do range dmg instead of melee dmg, IE kinetic.
The problem could really be pushed back farther then that though. Orginal complaint
1) rifflemen were kiting all melee personal and doing 900 point mind shots to them, and when the melee reached the rifflemen...they did about 1/3 the dmg on average.
Fix: they put a 2.5x melee dmg penalty on riffles. An idea that i think was a good idea, and although still strong and powerfull in the pvp field, they have a disadvantage that is clear.
2) then that created another problem. rifflmen were getting 2 shoted in by mobs in pve. cover wasn't working, and in pvp rifflemen were getting 1 shoted by flame throwers because it was considered melee.
Fix: made cover way more viable, working much better then it previously did, as well as changed the dmg type of flame throwers to ranged dmg, so they dont 2 shot rifflemen anymore.
3) caused a huge rift here between the balance of melee, and comandos, because comandos and the best melee class....the TKM ;it was always a close fight, with the outcome uncertian, with the proposed idea to the change from melee to range, the complaints started to poor in about possible comandos owning all melee worse then they owned rifflemen previously.
Fix: they simply applied the 2.5x melee modifier to comandos heavy weapons as well, so they too are in balance with melee. it goes with what Q said, if melee can catch you....the game is over.
4) this is really the final problem in this mutli dimention course of actions. one that received huge amount of complaints, but in a way was really un-noticeable. Comandos were simply leveling to master comando too easily. they were able to go to dungeons on moenia and other places and clear out massive amonts of mobs in a few minutes. comandos were getting master in less then a week from novis. This needed to be brought back into balance, for not just the tKA but all class's who are hard to level, and people consider a grind.
Fix: the applied fix also fixed this, the 2.5x melee was intended for what everyone knows pvp....but pve as well.
Now for your idea, about somone quiting because he has a 2.5x. i am a TKM, and in a way , i have a 10x range penitly on me. i have 10x less range then they do, and i do 10x less dmg then your average pistoleer does. I also swing at a 10x speed less then range class's.
how can i say this? well i swing once for 500 dmg, then never swing again for 30 seconds
the pistoleer hits me for 30 straight seconds for 150-200 every 1 second. i keep healing myself and at the end
TKM 500dmg
pistoleer 4500
so to me comandos having 2.5x, is probably justified. i feel bad for both comandos and rifflemen in pve, although riffllemen can now effectively solo for the first time in months. I do not feel bad that comandos had it so good for months, but then i guess that was their pay day for sucking for 2 months after release.
in sort perhaps a decrease in the 2.5x in melee for PVE ony is required. perhaps a 1.5x or 2.0x is in order. As for the 2.5x melee dmg penilty in pvp. that was an awsome idea to help melee out, and i comend SWG devs for it. this really brought comandos back on par with alot of class's, and stoped the influx of 13 year olds wanting to play God class's, and pretending this is Quake 3 or somthing.
Ericinthemts wrote:
After trying to consol my commando friend (who was so upset by the recent change commando-weapons-are-now-rifles-you-have-to-use-within-15-m 'fix' that he's going to stop playing SWG),
I thought of a possible solution for the ranged vs melee damage problem. ( i didnt know there was one after the patch but lets here what it is)
Correct me if I'm wrong but, currently to sort of balance things out, if you have a rifle equipped you take x3 damage from melee( K your wrong, rifflemen and comando penitly is 2.5x not 3x)
(or x 1.5 for a carbine). This is a drag for Commando's who have had to master brawling ( this really is the meat of the problem of thos post right here) comandos do not require master brawler to get comando, just unarmed 4. so if you put that equation that you talk about next into play. then TKM will hit master comandso for around 5x instead of 2.5x, is that the fix your looking for? didnt think so. its fine the way it is, less perhaps too high in pve.
yet all their weapons count as rifles. So what about this ... instead of having the damage modifier be based on what weapon your holding, why not use a simple equation of ;
( Attackers highest melee level ) - (Defenders highest melee level) = Damage modifier (with a minimum of 1)
If this is limited to just the basic levels in melee skills, it means that the largest damage modifier would be X 4 - which seems startling until you think of it in terms of some one who have never been in a fist fight before vs. a professional Boxer.. This would help the advanced classes who had to take melee but don't really use it (Smuggler and Commando) as well as Melee classes - and still allow other classes a way to prevent being over powered by the melee only guys (by learning some melee fighting). This even allows the melee damage between players and MOBs to be managed evenly as well. The only people it leaves out are Bounty Hunters, who don't need to have any melee ranks and have very few skill points left over.
It also does something which is seldom talked about in MMORPGs - it reflects real life. After 6 years of studying various Martial Arts the one constant is that someone who is more trained is going to be able to do more damage to someone who has less training. I'm sure I'm missing something and I'm sure that someone here will point it out for me - otherwise what do you think of this as a way to balance Ranged vs melee damage ?
Thanks for you post, it does point out most of the history behind the change and correct my mistake. However I think you left out another point which I hear all the time from the ranged classes, which is the 'fix' for the MOB pathing problem - which is if the MOB can't resolve the path to get to the person who agro'ed it, they simply teleport on top of them. As a TK, I like this because it brings the fight to me. However combine this with the damage multiple for Rifles or Carbines and watch the Ranged guys drop like flies. This leads to one of my biggest pet peeves (Most people get a pet to Tank for them / no incentive to group with other players) which I will save for another thread.
One question: Why bring up the Pistoleer ?
First I'm not sure I agree that TKs only swing once every 30 secs, but even if that were the case myidea could balance things against SOME pistol users. Personally I think they should limit the range on pistols to be about half that of a rifle, but again that's an idea for another thread. There 'fix' / solution makes me think that the Dev team doesn't play the game or if they do they never play melee classes. I hate to say this but many of us don't give a dam about PvP and since EVERYONE plays PvE _That_ should be the Primary focus of the fixes, with PvP issues second.
Yeah, we swing once a second, it just looks like this for most of it.
That target is out of range.
That target is out of range.
That target is out of range.
That target is out of range.
and stoped the influx of 13 year olds wanting to play God class's
No now everyone wants to be a BH again....they can spam eye shot for 350 damage every second in PvP.....no helmet could save anyone from that, I'd like to see why you guys aren't whining about them yet every commando (that got beat down by Teras Kasi masters before the patch anyways) has to be nerfed into oblivion....ya, that was quite a fair move.