Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: Concerning My Post About Commandos and TKAs ( I hit a button with alot of people)
Xeonus wrote:
It wasnt a pistol...it was a two handed grenade launcher...big...not hand held.
Then I have no idea what you saw. There are no melee attacks that can be done with either the FT or the HAR, which are the only two weapons that commandos hold in 2 hands.
The true heavy weapons are charged. You get down on one knee, put your primary weapon on the ground, shoulder the weapon and fire. I can't imagine youarereferring to one of those weapons, andI doubt it was a grenade.
Frankly, I have no idea what you might have seen, but my point remains. There are no melee attacks in the commando skill tree. Check it out for yourself if you don't believe it.
Valkari-TKM wrote:
comando spends little points, plus they are a hybrid, they are suposed to be giving up raw power for utility, the only diferance is that SoE hasn't figured that out yet.
Hello, lastI checked Commando had the same requirements as TKA, plus they require this little nothing of a skill called MASTER MARKSMAN. It only sucks up about a 3rd of our total skill points for skills most commandos never even use. How can you say its easy or that we spend few points?
While I admire your zeal, I have to call a spade a spade, or in this case your source a fraud. If you follow your link, you'll find the source is nothing more than a fansite with pen-n-paper rpg rules and backstory. While it's entertaining, it is in no way official. In fact, thunderwulf responds in that thread with:
"I just want to point out again that this is NOT official SW cannon on Teras Kasi. The developers have seen this and say while it IS cool, they can't find any official refrence to it."
Your argument rests on that source. That source is bogus. Ergo,..
-Jeff
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Jarrax writes:
As a MCH/Commando myself the very best i hope for against TKA in melee range, is to land a bleed before im dizzy/knocked down and killed, and to hope my pets avenge me while im coming back from the clone centre.
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Clone wars are lame, by the way. I hope they fix raids, PvP (outside of Battlefields) to be more like Battlefield PvP.
Response:
First of all, Commandos only do melee damage because of a glitch, and it actually helps us melee because of our toughness skill. I usually take 200-300 damage from a flamesingle2, kill the Commando in a few hits, heal until fire wears off, and meditate the wounds off.
It is also stated even in the SWG user guide that melee is worse off than ranged by a long shot, and with the new melee boost in the next patch, kiting wont be that much of a problem.
Are you even a TKM? Do you even know how much damage we do? We have one of the highest DPS around as a master TKA.
"2. We do less damage, take more HAM penalties than any other melee class I know of and that includes Fencers and the like. The Devs are so worried about "balance" but the fact is Teras are not Balanced and shouldnt be..there very existance was to keep the Jedi in check and developed into a powerful enough class that even Luke Skywalker sought them out to rebuild Jedi Order."
Response:
Okay, Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Without a VK, i believe we use the least amount of HAM for high level specials out of ANY class(with the exception of KD but that makes sense). We can easily out damage some of the other professions because of this ability to string attacks without VKs and our extremely high accuracy.
I have no idea about the jumbo about the Jedi Order and what not.
"3. Commandos take anywhere from 2500-3500 damage in Melee attacks cause I have seen it so dont refute it! There is no way a class should take more damage than us at Melee especially with all the freakin penalties we already suffer from ranged attacks, not even being able to use many of our so called "Special Moves" because they are either useless or rape you to death so what is the point."
Response:
Okay, again, I was a commando for a while and they do at most 1200 damage in PvP with flamesingle2 against an unarmored ranged profession. Against TKAs around 500. against TKAs with composite, around 200.
Oh, I'm a TKM, without VKs, I can spam unarmedhit3, which blinds, and if they are KDed, which they usually are, destroy someone with Composite in a few seconds.
Learn the professions before you ramble about things you do not even comprehend.
IdrisTycho wrote:
Valkari-TKM wrote:
comando spends little points, plus they are a hybrid, they are suposed to be giving up raw power for utility, the only diferance is that SoE hasn't figured that out yet.
Hello, lastI checked Commando had the same requirements as TKA, plus they require this little nothing of a skill called MASTER MARKSMAN. It only sucks up about a 3rd of our total skill points for skills most commandos never even use. How can you say its easy or that we spend few points?
perhaps i missworded that statment, it costs more points then TK requirement, but the novis part of TK is about as hard as 3 tiers of marksmen. so ya getting required to use comando is harder then TK, but not by much, Then once you finaly start leveling TK and comando. there is no comparison. comando is much smoother and easier to level.
I was really refering to how the two main hybrids: comando, and bounty hunter, comando spends less points, but are just as potient, if not more.
like i said hybrids give up the Strength of mastering in one area to be (good) in many, that doesn't mean there one area is supperior to anyone else in the game. like i said SoE hasn't figured this out yet. I would not mind at all if TK required master brawler, but thats not what they did.
TK is not intended and never will be intended to be on the lower notchs of the totem poll. Infact the intended design of the class is to be THE authority of close quarter combat. don't believe me? ask SoE
compared to jedi im sure jedi> TK but wont be by alot trust me
Valkari-TKM wrote:
perhaps i missworded that statment, it costs more points then TK requirement, but the novis part of TK is about as hard as 3 tiers of marksmen. so ya getting required to use comando is harder then TK, but not by much, Then once you finaly start leveling TK and comando. there is no comparison. comando is much smoother and easier to level.
I was really refering to how the two main hybrids: comando, and bounty hunter, comando spends less points, but are just as potient, if not more.
like i said hybrids give up the Strength of mastering in one area to be (good) in many, that doesn't mean there one area is supperior to anyone else in the game. like i said SoE hasn't figured this out yet. I would not mind at all if TK required master brawler, but thats not what they did.
TK is not intended and never will be intended to be on the lower notchs of the totem poll. Infact the intended design of the class is to be THE authority of close quarter combat. don't believe me? ask SoE
compared to jedi im sure jedi> TK but wont be by alot trust me
I hear a lot of people griping about how hard unarmed IV is. I just didn't feel that way. Sure it took me a little time, from I to IV was about 2-3 days. Now ... how is that difficult? In the mean time I had to buy several guns I will never use again, had skills like rifleman that probably took just as long as unarmed, and at the end I had to be one of those goons standing next to the star port in coronet shouting:
"TRAINING: All Marksman, some scout, some medic, Unarmed I-IV for FREE, PST!"
That crap gets old and is one of the more frustrating things about marksman. Think about it, as a server gets older, fewer and fewer newbies will be needing these skills.
So anyway, while I cannot say Master Marksman was all that hard, to say that Novice TKA was somehow as hard is silly. By comparison I had to do only one thing to get to TKA, kill stuff unarmed. Much easier to grind that. Also, Don't forget all the combat exp that Novice Commando requires! It's not like Combat Exp grows on trees. Fortunately I could (and did) take the easier road and got pistoleer temporarily to suplement my fighting ability and to give me a way to level in Novice Commando.
Once I was Novice Commando it was a smooth grind you say? Have you ever shot a flame thrower at novice commando? To call the delays and inaccuracy smooth is a HUGE misstatement. Basically I had to use the launcher pistol until I was FT III or I wouldn't have even made it that far.
Then also you are forgetting the poor souls who took up commando before the patch and were so weak with their flame throwers that all they could kill was durnis on Corellia. Don't be calling it easy (even today) to become a commando. It ain't. And being a TKA is really not in the same ballpark as far as difficulty.
I also do not understand what people mean when they say "argh unarmed 1 - tka is so hard". In what way? I don't think it was hard. If 3 marksman skills are as fast as unarmed, it is TOO FAST!
Same thing I hear a lot of people talking about how hard it is to get to master doc crafting, I just wonder what they are doing. It is extremely boring, and it does take a couple of hours, but it isn't really an accomplishment as it isn't hard. It is very fast if you compare it to other online games.
So guys, please tell me why do you think unarmed 1 - tka is so hard?
Valkari-TKM wrote:
perhaps i missworded that statment, it costs more points then TK requirement, but the novis part of TK is about as hard as 3 tiers of marksmen. so ya getting required to use comando is harder then TK, but not by much, Then once you finaly start leveling TK and comando. there is no comparison. comando is much smoother and easier to level.
I was really refering to how the two main hybrids: comando, and bounty hunter, comando spends less points, but are just as potient, if not more.
like i said hybrids give up the Strength of mastering in one area to be (good) in many, that doesn't mean there one area is supperior to anyone else in the game. like i said SoE hasn't figured this out yet. I would not mind at all if TK required master brawler, but thats not what they did.
TK is not intended and never will be intended to be on the lower notchs of the totem poll. Infact the intended design of the class is to be THE authority of close quarter combat. don't believe me? ask SoE
compared to jedi im sure jedi> TK but wont be by alot trust me
What you say about hybrids is not true. They do not give up strength for versatility. In fact, precicely the opposite is true. Hybrid professions give up versatility for power. I'll explain.
Every master Bounty Hunter in the game is about the same as any other master BH. It takes almost every point you have to become a master BH, so you don't have the points left over to spend in other areas to make your character more versatile. The trade off of this restriction is that BHs have access to the best combat skills in the game. A MBH can't be a doctor, or a combat medic or a TKA, or whatever.
A combat class like the pistoleer does not have the great moves that BHs do. However, a master pistoleer could also be a master doctor or master CH, either of which would make that character much more versatile.
Let's face it. Master marksman is not worth anything in high level play. How often are you really going to use overcharged shot 2 if you have fan shot, crippling shot, or some other high-level elite skill? So the skill points that are required to gain access to professions like BH and commando are more or less wasted. That's fine. That's the way it's supposed to be. The trade off is that the skills given to the elite professions are supposed to make up for the "wasted" skill points spent mastering things that you'll never use again.
I'll say it here and now. A character who has invested points in nothing but Master Commando should be generally more effective in combat than a character who has invested points in nothing but TKM. Plain and simple. They spend substantially more skill points to master their profession, and that skill point investment should pay off.
This does not mean that TKAs should not dominate commandos & BHs in certain situations. Clearly TKAs are a specialist close-combat class that should tear appart either of those 2 classes if the TKA can close and get a good shot in. All I'm saying is that if you spend more points, you should see an appropriate increase in power.
The other side of this coin is that a TKM has spent less than half his/her points, and in free to invest in any other skills he/she sees fit. Master Doctor will make you much more formidable in combat, as will Master CH, or Master CM. All of which are available to TKAs as a secondary class. In fact, you could choose to master both TKA and Commando (which I just may do if they ever fix the rest of the commando prof).
Bickering about numbers aside the point of the original topic was that TKA should be what is it.
That in mind I would mind seeing them become that power BUT at a cost. The elite elite tree is a good idea. Keep the current tree as it now and change the name, then add the new tree as an elite elite profession that will eat all but a few points.
Another option is to double the XP needed to gain skills.
Still another would be to add a forced ethics code. No attacking people without being attacked (duels would be a exception), no faction as your faction would be TKA, unable to join a guild as your life is dedicated to the way of the teras kasi, and things of that nature.
There are ways to do what you want done but its not as simple as just making TKA super powerful. skillpoints are no guage of difficulty. I can reach pistol 4 in a day if I play nonstop for 12 hours. There no way to do that with unarmed 4. Anyone that tried to use skill points as a guage of a classes difficult is just grasping at straws. I'd love to see a race of two people to see if Novice CH or Novice Musician was easier. (And no macroing, thats a dang expliot and just cheap.)
Mister_Heavy wrote:
Valkari-TKM wrote:
perhaps i missworded that statment, it costs more points then TK requirement, but the novis part of TK is about as hard as 3 tiers of marksmen. so ya getting required to use comando is harder then TK, but not by much, Then once you finaly start leveling TK and comando. there is no comparison. comando is much smoother and easier to level.
I was really refering to how the two main hybrids: comando, and bounty hunter, comando spends less points, but are just as potient, if not more.
like i said hybrids give up the Strength of mastering in one area to be (good) in many, that doesn't mean there one area is supperior to anyone else in the game. like i said SoE hasn't figured this out yet. I would not mind at all if TK required master brawler, but thats not what they did.
TK is not intended and never will be intended to be on the lower notchs of the totem poll. Infact the intended design of the class is to be THE authority of close quarter combat. don't believe me? ask SoE
compared to jedi im sure jedi> TK but wont be by alot trust me
What you say about hybrids is not true. They do not give up strength for versatility. In fact, precicely the opposite is true. Hybrid professions give up versatility for power. I'll explain.
Every master Bounty Hunter in the game is about the same as any other master BH. It takes almost every point you have to become a master BH, so you don't have the points left over to spend in other areas to make your character more versatile. The trade off of this restriction is that BHs have access to the best combat skills in the game. A MBH can't be a doctor, or a combat medic or a TKA, or whatever.
A combat class like the pistoleer does not have the great moves that BHs do. However, a master pistoleer could also be a master doctor or master CH, either of which would make that character much more versatile.
Let's face it. Master marksman is not worth anything in high level play. How often are you really going to use overcharged shot 2 if you have fan shot, crippling shot, or some other high-level elite skill? So the skill points that are required to gain access to professions like BH and commando are more or less wasted. That's fine. That's the way it's supposed to be. The trade off is that the skills given to the elite professions are supposed to make up for the "wasted" skill points spent mastering things that you'll never use again.
I'll say it here and now. A character who has invested points in nothing but Master Commando should be generally more effective in combat than a character who has invested points in nothing but TKM. Plain and simple. They spend substantially more skill points to master their profession, and that skill point investment should pay off.
This does not mean that TKAs should not dominate commandos & BHs in certain situations. Clearly TKAs are a specialist close-combat class that should tear appart either of those 2 classes if the TKA can close and get a good shot in. All I'm saying is that if you spend more points, you should see an appropriate increase in power.
The other side of this coin is that a TKM has spent less than half his/her points, and in free to invest in any other skills he/she sees fit. Master Doctor will make you much more formidable in combat, as will Master CH, or Master CM. All of which are available to TKAs as a secondary class. In fact, you could choose to master both TKA and Commando (which I just may do if they ever fix the rest of the commando prof).
We seem to dissagree alot, which is fine, it helps stimulate debate.
I will dissaggree about more versitility because I am talking about combat versitility. There is a benifit for having master riffleman, but there is a disadvantage of having master riffleman. There is an advantage for having master pistoleer, and there is a disadvantage for having master pistoleer. There is an advantage for having master carbineer, and there is a disadvantage for having master carbineer.
maybe you are seeing were im going with this. Bounty hunter for example will have carbine pistol and a combination of heavy weapons and riffle long range attacks. They can choice the weapon of choice. Were as a pistoleer can't. if he wants to use a riffle, he could go master riffleman and master pistoleer, but then he will still be at the disadvantage vs a bounty hunter.
Lets say that master pistoleer goes master rifflmena and the rest of his points into carbine. He is out of points, the bounty hunter is still better because of better moves and specials, and the bounty hunter can now get some medic.
Same goes for the comando. He gets up close dmg of nearly as good as a TK, and he gets range dmg as good as it gets IMO. he gets granades that can be used using unarmed if he decides to put the rest of his points into somthing like TK. hybrids are more versital in how they can choice to attack. I do not believe personaly that a expert bounty hunter with a tier of pistoleer should be more potient then somone who is a master pistoleer.
What is scout totaly useless? making the best tents serve a purpose, and mask scent serves a purpose, and terian negotiation serves a purpose. I have master brawler, it serves a purpose, like master marksman does. you can't simply scratch those prereqs out the window as all bounty hunter points.
bounty hunter is novis 6 points master 6 points and 4x14 points for the tiers. same as TK. If i wanted range i could go marksman and be somewhat ineffective, but i still have that choice. i do have scout, because i find it valuable.
hybrids get more utility more versitility in their respective class then somone else who masters in a specific class. The masters though specialize in one area.
i'll give you an example in RL. An administrator is alot like a hybrid, he knows accounting, finanse, marketing, managment, and law, but a CPA specializes in accounting, and he knows more about accounting in general speeking then that adminiistrator.
This is the definition of a hybrid. they are jack of all trades sort of speek