Teras Kasi Archive

First off, I'm a master pistoleer/expert (pistol tree) bh. My knockdown move of choice was disarmingshot2, previously costing 32 HAM, doing 450 average (random-pool) damage to and knocking down everything in a cone in front of me. All knockdown moves have felt the HAM change, I'm just posting in this thread because it seems to be pretty sane, intelligent, and generally devoid of people with their heads stuck up dark hairy places. On to the analysis:

So I logged on this morning and noticed that disarmingshot2 now takes 100 ham with a good scout blaster... pistolwhip takes 90. I watched a bounty-carbineer duel someone and use knockdown fire... and hurt himself more than he hurt his target - this with a good laser carbine. I have yet to see the HAM cost on TKA knockdown with or without knuckles, but I bet it's insane. Something is seriously wrong when regularly hurt yourself more than you hurt your target.

I agree that knockdown should be nerfed - pre-patch I could solo a small group of nightsisters (low end ones of course) and take 8-1 odds in pvp and win. While both of these are really fun, they're also really broken. While the HAM cost increase fixed both of these issues, it broke significantly more. I'm now afraid of a group of escaped nightsister slaves... one failed knockdown and I'm toast. Sometimes I don't even have to fail a KD. TKAs and carbineers are even worse off - they're paying substantially more HAM to knock down one target at a time. So... how to fix the problem without making us all afraid of a group of maulers?

I'm in favor of a timer on the actual move. Though temporary +defense vs KD when knocked down sounds good, it still lets us knockdown spam. The original problem was that we could solo Very Large Mobs without getting scratched, so they gave said mobs defense vs knockdown. What did we do?... started using it multiple times. With +KD defense, their innate def vs. knockdown would still be negated. I think the idea is that we feel the cost of failing a knockdown, so a timer on the actual move makes sense.

I also propose that the timer be different for each move, based on the quality of the move. Higher HAM cost? Lower timer. Spam it if you want... you'll get yourself killed. The timer would scale up with number of targets effected as well, keeping us master pistoleers from rooting an entire group at once while leaving us the ability to not get eaten by a single mob. This keeps both PvP and PvE in check and, unlike today's patch, is substantially less painful than closing a door on your head.

The other idea I was tossing around was an 'inverse' timer - a knockdown bomb. Once you do enough knockdowns in a given time period, something very bad happens to you, like you fall over yourself (unrealistic) or you start getting ludicrous HAM costs. It doesn't have to be an all-at-once thing either... HAM costs could exponentially increase with your 'knockdown count,' which would itsself decrease over time. This sort of usage-based increase could also be applied to a timer. That would take care of us pistoleers rooting an entire group too.

There has got to be a better way to fix knockdown than what's happened... lets find it.

Ok, anybody who has played since the latest "greatest" patch has probably realised something. We've been nerfed, big time. I'd use harsher language (as I did when I saw the ham cost for knockdown), but this thread needs to be about creativity.

We need to figure out a way for us to not be so crippled by our own specials so that the devs listen to us, and agree with our ideas.

We also need to come up with ways of implementing what we want. The easiest way to get the stuff we want is to figure out how it would work, and how to balance it, before we ask for it.

So, let's come up with ideas on how to help Un-nerf knockdown, and everything else they did to us.

So far, my only idea is that instead of such a painful HAM cost, knockdown could have a timer, like healing does for the medics, and you wouldn't be able to use it as a spam-move. Maybe, as you went up the balance tree, you'd get bonuses to make the move a little faster, but overall, it would stay balanced to where the devs want it( they obviously don't want it very powerful. Nor do they want us very powerful, but I digress.)

Also, some of the other issues I read about us having, is that we want a DOT attack. To me, what makes the most sense is to have a DOT that does random damage. It wouldn't specifically target the health, action or mind, but it would make whatever it hit bleed. This kind of falls alongside how the other 3 melee professions work, as they each target something specific, whereas TK is more general. The actual placement of the DOT attack could be in the Intermediate Precision Striking tree, the body hit could move up to advanced, and action hit could move up to expert. Head hit would staywhere it is:in master preciscion striking. Something like this, to me, seems more balanced than giving TK a DOT for all three pools, and also seems more balanced in that TK gets a DOT period.

One last thing before I turn this over to everyone else's Ideas:

If we want to bring up the give-meditate-it's-own-type-of-xp issue, then perhaps the best thing would be to make it work like a camp. After a certain ammount of time, you're xp is maxed out for that session of meditation, and you have to re-start. Each box you climbed up the tree allows you to meditate longer and in terms of game mechanics, more xp per session. I don't know, what do you think?

Anyway, the way they are treating us is rediculous, but in order to defend ourselves, it must be done with good ideas to counter what they offer. And along with those ideas must come balance. As much as we want, they're not going to let us be as good as some other classes. Then again, they told commands where to shove it. let's get some ideas out there.

/signs post. I like your ideas a lot. Hopefully the devs will take a second to review your post.

Well if you noticed it's not just TK who has the HAM costs upped, it's pistol too and probably every profession I'd assume. Why such HAM costs devs? I think I have successfully as a TK master killed a mob and myself in 3 hits of hit3. And as a Pistoleer master 5 hits to kill myself. Of course I didnt realize the insane HAM costs until I was incapped and couldnt figure out why.....647! for one unarmed knockdown2 hit???? I don't any changes need to be done to the profession. Let's just get rid of these crazy HAM costs for all professions.

Has anyone considered that the cost of non-knockdown specials may be a bug? My understanding was that they were planing to lower the costs of other specials apart from knockdown? Anyway I don't have as much to say, becuase so far having hunted and soloed for an hour, I'm not nearly as freaked out about everything as the rest of you. It sucks, but its not the end of the world.

it sucks, all the classes are upset, go lurk some and you'll see. they did need to reign in thing because it was a tad out of control but everyone is bogged down too much now if you ask me, the start of this post is good, calm, collected, and trying to progress us in the right direction. Im not happy either, dont get me wrong but it is a new game, its gonna have ups and downs after patchs just like every other game that has ever gone live (UO/DAOC/EQ etc etc) best we can do is put togeather good solid feedback w/facts behind it instead of childish (its broke fix it) comments. so we will have to parce some data and show what we already know. and then pray it goes live..

just my 2credits.

Aelstyn Melarn

SS

I proposed a counter in another message - but here it is again:

Take the con of the mob into account when computing your chance at landing a knockdown. maybe they do this already, but seriously, I could land knockdown on reds about as easy as I coudl on blues, and that's why it got nerfed all to hell. It was just *wrong*.

I got 5 boxes into tk before using knockdown, and suddenly it became too easy to take reds. The flipside is taking whites without knockdonw was *too hard*. What allowed me to kill even cons that were eating me up pre-knockdown also allowed me to waltz up and pop things I had no business fighting.

If they only upped the ham costs, I'll be able to finish master doctor and *still* be able to waltz up to red cons and knock them down repeatedly as I'll have all physical stats in the 2500 range.

This is not a fix to a potential exploit. It is a downright crippling of tk as a profession. We rely on knockdown to kill dark blues as well as white cons. Their fix simply makes life disgusting for us. Instead of keep us from killing reds with no risk, now we can't even kill dark blues or white cons with little risk.

Oh and unless you're at least halfway through the TK trees, please hold the "but I can still solo fine" without knockdown comments. As you progress through the trees you'll have to fight harder and harder things. White cons at novice TK level are by no means as difficult as white cons at near master. Not telling you your input it not wanted, it simply isn't valid. I was fine soloing myself without knockdown until I was 5 boxes into TK, at which time white cons started to take ages to drop, doing scads of damage to me as I killed them by 'death by papercut'. Honestly, you'll know what I mean when you get there. I am not being elitist,I am just saying that white cons later in the trees seem s hell of a lot harder than white cons early in the tk profession.

i dont have knockdown yet and i am doing fine.... i can solo yellows ok, and just today i took on 4....count them.... 4 white conn imperials, and killed them all, and they were all attacking me throughout the battle. i do agree though, the HAM cost for KD is insane now, and basically just nullifies the special, nobody will use it practically anymore. i find it really funny that everyone was crying for REDUCED HAM costs.... and the devs make them greater, what a joke. and another thing.... ranged users do have an increased HAM cost for their knockdown, but so far, reports are saying it only costs them 100 HAM to use.... WHY THE HELL DO RANGED USERS ALWAYS GET THE BETTER DEAL!!! what the hell is wrong with you SOE??? do you just NOT care that a decent amount of your subscriber base is melee, and we want to have FUN *gasp* YES FUN, playing your game? seriously.... we had tons of issues about stuff in the TKA class, and so far, it looks like the devs have done everything OPPOSITE of what we asked for. *smacks his forehead* i cant believe i am saying this, but i am actually starting to think about canceling my account due to the fact that it is obvious that SOE doesnt listen to its customers.... you can nerf classes, and i wont care that much, but HOLY !@#$ you dont have to totally nullify them. TKA is still a decent proff. but we will NEVER be as good as a ranged proff.... the devs have seen to that

100% on the DOT idea. It makes total sense for balance and for the most part, Reality.

OK sayin in LIFE someone of my size (6'5" size 15 foot hehe) were to thrust a kick into the average persons ribs....there will be internal bleeding. For it to target the action or mind is not real. The body doesnt really bleed internally in the legs or head (only slightly but even slightly in the head is dangerous). If you ever fight as a TK how often do you kill your targt due to action or mind. 75% of all our dmg is health related. A bleed would be nice.

Just me 2 cents.