Teras Kasi Archive
Thread: Some proposals for TKA
Holocron,
I mean this with all due respect, but It is clear to me that you aren't overly experienced with this profession. For example, while unarmed lunge does, in fact, force the enemy into a lower position, do you realize that by the time the animation is done for UA lunge, that your opponent is already standing up again? This is what I am saying, people are able to force themselves out of the position by manually hitting /stand again. This needs changed, when they are forced down, they should be forced in that position for a few seconds, rather than being able to stand back up and start running before you've been able to even get closer.
Also, c'mon man. There is no reason why a pistoleer should have a better KD than TKA...
Holocron, you asked what we are comparing ourselves to.
I am a Teras Kasi Master and have been sense nearly 3 weeks after release. My best in game friend is a Master Pistoleer. Ina recent post patch comparison, this is what I have come to conclude:
A Master Pistoleer can do comparable damage to a Teras Kasi master at a largely reduced cost to HAM. His fan shot was hitting for an average of 1.1k dmg, my Unarmed Hit 3 was hitting for an average of 1.3k dmg, both at the same speed of 1hit per second. My non styled shots were hitting for an average of 350 dmg (with VK) his non styled shots were hitting for an average of 300, again at 1 shot per second. Yes I was doing slightly more dmg, however my HAM cost was over triple what his was on the styled shots, and he has the advantage of being able to be at a significant distance. Furthermore a Master Pistoleer has a ranged AoE knockdown, allowing them to KD multiple targets from a long range at a HAM cost that is even less than what a Mater Teras Kasi's KD cost is W/O VK. This is ludicrous, how can a multi target ranged KD cost less than a single target non-ranged KD.Even the Pistoleers single KD costs much less than our KD and has agreater range (however according to your post this might be fixed).
I cant understand how you could possibly say we are overpowered. We have no advantage over any other class in pve because ranged classes have the ability to kite, and both pistoleer and carabineer have a KD that costs less than ours which is an incredible PvE utility. In PvP we are rediculously underpowered. I think what needs to be understood is that every PvP fight, with the very rare exception of a cantina brawl, will start at over 90m. People notice the red dot on their radar coming at them even b4 they are within the 64m range to shoot, so pretty much every fight is started at max distance. There is no hope for TK or any melee to "close the gap". PvP between master professions, even with the dmg reduction, only lastsa maximum of 10 seconds. If you truely want melee to be viable in PvP there needs to be some serious changes made, otherwise I would like an official statement saying that you do not indent it to ever be fair (you have hinted at this before but i still reserve the right to hope.)
So, in summary, I am comparing myself to other Master Ranged professions. Honestly I think every melee class needs attention, not just TKA, because in comparison to other master professions, we are sorely UNDERpowered. If you would care to counter my argument with specific comparisons of your own I would be very willing to change my mind. I would just like some insight into what you see as a fair comparison and what the TKA class is meant to be.
As a side note, I think that if TKA is ever to attain the place it deserves in the Star Wars Universe there should be created an "elite-elite" proffesion above TKmaster, because the TKartists are supposed to have comparable power to the jedi, so a mastery should be very difficult to attain, recquire a significant amount of points, and more importantly be very rewarding. (Obviously this vision will never be met any time soon as you have more pressing matters, but it might still be a good idea to put waaaay down on your list as something in the distant future to look at.)
Thank you first off Holocron for at least giving us some SANITY by not letting us hang out here with/out a response to our problems.
I'm glad to see ya'll are actually working on it. Best of all you did say that you are taking an incremental approach which means in a couple posts ago you said you know about the KD and that ya'll will be looking into this. We will hold you to those words:
No, we are still looking at knockdown. This isn't meant to be a comprehensive list of everything we evr intend to do...
As far as the other changes i really would like to see end numbers instead of bases to determine if this is going to hurt us or help us. A difference of 18 to the base could mean anything....cause i dont know what the multipliers and calculations go into the final numbers like VK equipped 700 HAM compared to 230 HAM unequipped.
The Mind costs are really weird because we have never had to pay with mind.....How are we supposed to heal ourselves with no mind? As it is our HAM is getting hit enough. So basically your telling us to never solo in the game and always have a medic with us? Well for some that are ROLE-PLAYERS and take a true MONK stance to the game this will not help at all.
Thank you for the Defensive attributes you will add...this im sure will be great seeing something is better than nothing at all.
We are still faced with the PROBLEM of BALANCE. Why do pistoleers have knockdown still? and their cost to use is 140. Well if there is do be any changes im hoping it will either bring them to our nerfed status or bring us back to the pre patch state. Either way would be fine with me.
NOTE: If you do not do something with KD progressive...you will be seeing workarounds like Unarmed + Dizzy = KD. This to me show lack of support from developers when the players have to REGRESS instead of PROGRESS as the game or any game is intended to be played. Right?
Meditation: This will be your ONLY!!!! and i repeat ONLY safeguard to increasing or not changing HAMs across the board to an acceptable lvl. Incremental increase of % gained the higher lvl meditation you get. PERIOD!!
If you guys read our posts and actually care about making the game/class/pvp/pve balanced please make changes that will appease the masses. Because on the bottom line we pay your salaries and keep this game afloat.
Thank you
Please don't change the knuckler costs if you are going to increase the action and mind cost. Those are the weakest pools for most melee. I still think we need a way to increase run speed for a short time like a mini burst run. Or make a skill that not only reduces the burst run cost but also the re-use time as we advance in TKA. The rework of defense skills sounds great because as far as I can tell...they don't work.
Krul Master TKA
That this paragraph is strategy guide hyperbole. Read literally it says "TKAs can't be killed." Uhh... I doubt that you or we want that.
I would think of the strategy guide passage more as 'flourish' than anything. I don't think anyone on these boards wants an indestructible character. That has NEVER been the issue. All we want is a CHANCE in combat, both against high-end mobs and inPvP.
I dont' understand. All you have to do is read these boards for ONE day to know that NO ONE wants an indestructible character. (Do you read the TKA board? Really, I'm curious.). Our main concern is that we have NO advantage now when fighting at close range. Analyzing the stategy guide passageasa way tosupport your 'position' seems like a needless attempt at coyness and equivocation.
Look, all we're trying to do here is make you happy and make sure you have fun in the game. At the same time, if we say "we will give you anything you ask for," you will ask to be invulnerable (admit it. ). If we're proceeding from different assumptions, we're going to end up disagreeing. Hence my post in SWG discussion sowe can get back to first principles.
Having increased movement speed is going to make us invulnerable? Having slightly better defenses is going to make us invulnerable? Reducing HAM costs a bit is going to make us invulnerable? Giving us some form of /stick or 'close distance' ability is going to make us invulnerable? Removing the absurd reliance uponvibro-knucklers is going to make us invulnerable?Please, explain why you think this when a pistoleer will still be able to dominate us at 30m by spamming special move after special move.
Ranged weapon users (as of right now) can still 'spam' special move after special move, ad nauseum. They can 'kite' us all day long, without even being touched in many cases. Even NPC's have a nasty habit of 'kiting' us. And don't even talk about the high-end game, where mobs hit for 500+ damage, just for fun. At that point, TKA is a useless, 'broken' profession not wanted by groups.
If any profession is invulnerable in this game, it's a ranged profession, not TKA. But you know this already, don't you?
And that's the sad, pathetic truth of this situation. Because, let's face it: It all boils down to your ludicrous assessment that if someone "brings a knife to a gunfight", they will loose. What makes this response absurd though, and waht strips it down to a meaningless 'quip' is that the people on these boards AGREE with it (in spirit, if not in implementation).
Yes, TKA should beat adisadvantage if they are fighting a ranged weapon user. Yes, they should be forced to close the distance, and get into close combat if they are to survive. No one here is denying that.
The problem, though, is thatthere is NO way to do that. There isNO way to close the distance or'get in close'. Unarmedlunge, for all its intent, doesn't work half the time, and with the HAM costs continually 'out of whack', we do more damage to ourselves for the most part. Also, by extension, there is nothing in the current game implementation that addresses/explains the fact that an encumbered bounty hunter, wearing full composite armor (and therefore slower, right?), can kite a TKA all day long, while at the same time firing a rifle over his shoulder. Don't you agree that TKA should have some sort of movement speed bonus, however small? Or, are you pursposely just trying to 'gimp' us?
Really, if tou want to use pale, 'real world' comparisons (like 'Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"), then please apply the same standard when you consider the fact that ranged weapon users should not be able to Kite-and-Fight in the way that they currently do. If we are not allowed to run faster, then it's absurd that they can run at top speed and fire behind them withouta largerpenalty.
I'll tell you that ourtake as far as TKAs go is that you have some balance issues, but overall you are overpowered, not under. Can you explain to me why that is incorrect? What are you measuring against, exactly. (Pistoleers in PvP? PvE when compared against a comparably advanced carbineer or pikeman? What, exactly, are you using as your baseline?)
What is YOUR baseline, Raph. We have posted hundreds of comparisonson these boards. Have you read any of them? (No, really. Have you?) The fact of the matter is that a pistoleer (for example) can solo just about anything in this game, with little to no down time, and very little player skill.
Example: Auto-target Tortur, spam health shots, body shots, warnings shots until the Tortur dies. Pistoleer has NOT EVEN BEEN TOUCHED. Pistoleer incurs ZERO HAM damage. Pistoleer has ZERO down time. Rinse and repeat.
By contrast, TKA players incure 50% more damage (when not incapped), incur tremendous amount of downtime (they can't 'rinse and repeat' like a pistoleer), and incur HAM / wound damage. And remember, this doesn't even include the vast inequities present in PvP and high-end 'tanking'.
I'm not saying that Pistoleer and TKA need to be balanced. It is fairly obvious, however, that TKA doesn't even come CLOSE to approaching the combat efficiency of the Pistoleer class. TKA's certainly don't 'shine' in any way. However, if there is not to be any balance (in general terms) between, say, TKA and Pistoleer, what's the point of your question? If your mindis already 'made up', so to speak, why even ask us for ouropinion?I hate to say it, but so farno one at SOE sems to be listening.
Given the fact that TKA is a melee class, I accept certain limitations. But the main problem I have is that (in terms of combat effectiveness) we have NO advantage at close range. NOTHING. As of right now, any other combat profession can easily win against us in close combat, without even trying. I'm sure you've read/heard about novice marksman defeating skilled TKA's in duels.
My advice is that someone at SOE actually play the TKA profession, instead of just moving numbers around at looking at it in abstract terms. We have been harping for weeks now about how underpowered TKA's are, yet you come to the board and say that we are "overpowered" (???) I just don't get it.
As a collective, we've already give you our input. Personally, I think it's your turn.
Meth
I am glad that you are addressing some of our issues,
The vibro-knuckles issue could be handled easily
Get rid of them and scale our unarmed damage accordingly. These changes and our knockdown cost are just silly. Why not focus on styles to deliver damage Vs knuckles that accentuate an existing problem.
We should be able to dodge as much or more-so then a Pistoleer, given we are in tune with our bodies, we should also be able to run faster if that be the case, maybe 5-15% faster At least this would allow us to close on a target eventually, assuming we stay alive.
In addition to this, I cannot fathom how if I became a Master Fencer and a Master Tera Kasi Artist for example:
Why would I lose my dodge modifier without a sword in my hands, Do I forget how to dodge when I unequip my weapon. It doesn’t say parry, it says dodge. For that matter, how would a Pistoleer be a better dodger than I?
I really enjoy playing this game and I see an even greater game at the heart of this creation, but there is much needed balance and tweaking that is needed to polish this up.
If we are to be at such a disadvantage Vs ranged combatants, shouldn’t we have the lowest costs and most reliable styles in compensation for balance. Chain styles would be a greater enhancement in addition to the removal of knuckles entirely and damage/cost balance. Defensive enhancements are a must and I’m sure that somehow the developers will tie all bonuses together, so that defense in this game will make sense.
Please respond,
Syr’kai
the problem holocron is this...
my knucklers are 26-132 1.6 and the ham cost is something like 36/54/48 or something along that lines..
my scout blaster is 59-123 1.3 and the ham cost is 11/24/11
you need to go through your equipment database and standardize ham costs based on damage and delay. the fact that a marksman with only expert pistol can attack as fast as i do with master power and does enough damage to actually take a huge chunk of xp away is a bad thing (i have two computers, the second one i use as a doctor bot and she has the pistol)
you dont have to decrease the base ham costs to the special moves by 75%. 25% reduction and putting vk's on par with scout blasters is more reasonable
another note..
chaining styles should be encouraged. in fact there should be styles that can only be performed as part of chain. this not only puts some excitement but also some strategy into melee combat. right now it's about as boring as it can get.
Holocron, this is your game - the ball is in your court. It is really your position to explain to us why we are overpowered, not why we feel we're underpowered. We only go by what we're given. We have no clue if we were supposed to be able to solo on planets like Endor or Dathomir. My personal feelings were we were a but overpowered, and I even advocated raising knockdown to 100 pre-patch. You guys took it way too far. A blanket HAM increase is not the way to balance our powerful yet very necessary attack. There is no reason we should kill ourselves like this.
You made us rely on knockdown. There is no other way to survive in melee against high level NPC's and creatures. I've tried it, and my failures had nothing to do with HAM costs. They had to do with the fact that the specials did virtually nothing to the creatures damage output. Really, do you just want us to pull out the pom poms for fights against Dark Jedi, Kimo's, Krayts, any night sister beyond initiate level? What do YOU envision our role to be in these fights?
We were given a class that was a lot of fun in PvE but really is short-changed in PvP. I don't like to advocate nerfs, but you guys screwed up by giving ranged classes knockdown imho. Give the BH some other way of taking out their marks. Knockdown should have been the melee's bread and butter, (our prize if you will) for managing to get into melee range. We're not the Kings and Queens of anything. Pistol users get the benefits of close range and long range fighting.
Holo,
You'll find little or no argument from me that knockdown costs should be high. The question is:
Why is our knockdown so high compared to other classes?
That's really all we want answered. Why is the pistoleer's knockdown 100 to 150, while ours is 250 - 600+?
Why is the BH ranged knockdown cheaper than our melee knockdown?
Why is the Smuggler ranged knockdown cheaper than our melee knockdown
Why is the pikeman area effect knockdown cheaper than our melee knockdown
You see? We just want to be treated equally!
I actually like the high cost of VKs. It introduces some strategy and style. I can go full unarmed, and use lots of styles and enjoy the variety and help friends by blinding/stunning their adds, or I can just slap on the VKs and boost damage, but not get fancy. Or I can take them on and off. It's more fun than just hitting a macro and walking away.
But there's two things that you didnt mention that seem pretty unfair to me:
1. Our knockdown had to nerfed, that was clear to me when I killed yellows without getting hit. But why is it that TKA knockdown was nerfed more than others in terms of HAM cost? (note, I use my w/o a vk) And why was TKA knockdown changed to use so danged much MIND, vs other classes? That just seems unfair to me, and rubs a lot of us wrong. Make it even across classes, I don't see why that would be unfair.
2. Why do we hit faster with VKs armed? I say this at risk of you slowing down the VK attacks, when what I'd rather see is speeding up the true unarmed hits. I feel cheated when I take off my VKs to fight unarmed and light, and yet hit noticeably slower.
I like the directions you're going, and totally agree knockdown is very overpowered. I just think a lot of folks are upset that it seems TKA knockdown is being treated differently, and it's really very strange that a brawler has so much mind dependency (maybe this is the way you want it to be for TKAs, it's just a big change and really impacts gameplay for us).
The bigges problem is that from creation of a brawler, mind is by far the smallest of the three pools. For a starting Zabrak like myself, it goes 1200, 1000, 500. This implies that the mind pool is not much of a factor for a brawler and on into TKA. As of the last patch, the mind drain on specials has been a killer. Putting even MORE emphasis on mind is absurd. With fairly even substats, there are some special attacks that already pull more from the mind then any other pool. This is my #1 problem since the patch, even moreso then the knockdown joke. All special attacks have been rendered useless because of the mind drain. I understand that there's going to be an overall lessening of it, but we don't need more emphasis on it then there already is.
Holocron wrote:
Keep in mind that the action and mind cost for the vibroknucklers should be completly outweighted by the reduction in the base special move cost. In other words, it goes down by a large percentage, then goes up by 7 points.
Archon007 wrote:
I do not like the increase in ACTION &MIND COST, it's already way out of control.
How does that address the issue that we're already paying in some cases THREE times the amount of HAM costs then any other profession with knockdown? Not to mention they can do it from a distance AND do more damge!
Holocron wrote:
Afra_Lyon wrote:
I sorry Holo, I'm just not reassured. It seems to me that you are making more mistakes then you are solving. As TK's, we are in the thick of the battle, and as such we and all other meleers should have the lowest special move HAM cost. As it is now, especially with the 600 HAM cost for knockdown, we have the highest.
The former, because knockdown can kill anything in the game with little risk?
Beserk should give brawler classes a speed increase, not as fast as burst but just a slight increase where its not impossable to close in on someone 12 meters ahead of you, running away in a straight line.
Anarchy Online had Rage i think it was called, where the Enforcer would take a few points of damage every 5 seconds or so, could move faster, was harder to snare/root, and had an increase to attack speed.
Since all melee'rs have brawling as a base class, having Beserk increase movementspeed would add some balance, and make the melee classes less of a pain. After all, someone going around meleeing is usually in better shape then someone using ranged weapons.