Tailor Archive
Thread: BE tissues in armour again!
We don't want clothign to replace armor, as you say. And we don't like the way Armor has replaced clothing currently. What we want is for people to have options. I mean, nobody who isn't insane is going to go into, for instance, the DWB without a full suit of armor. On the other hand, we dont want people to never take this armor off, because then they cant reequip it without buffs. (Okay, at this point it does you no good unbuffed anyways, because if you use 1-2 specials youve just killed yourself... might as well be a carbineer.). We want both to be viable options, each having their own distinct place, yours in higher-end combat, ours in non-combat things, but we would like some way of catering to the combat crowd, which, aside from undershirts we dont really have now. This effectively cuts 50% or more of the players in the game out of our market already. Tailor is NOT a profit-driven business by any means. (I think I actually LOST money last month :/) But currently everyone who wants to fight anything stronger than a durni has armor. You say you have no other avenues in which to sell things. The truth is, it is the same for us. Our only REAL market is entertainers, crafters, and *gasp* Jedi? Yours is everybody. What I dont understand though, is why we cant expand the use of clothign without cutting back the sales/use of armor? I mean, both have their place. For instance, their was this great spawn of avian meat on Talus on my server recently (I got a deal for 150 cpu) but it only drops from Rasps and Flynocks, both very low-level creatures. I have no need of armor to fight these, I can do them unbuffed (of course I buff anyways) and besides, using armor on them is just a waste of condition. Wouldnt I rather wear some clothing with a benefit? Ill probably be wearing clothign anyways. And if the bonus was somethign useful, like say Terrain Negotiation. (I know, I know, it ain't gonna happen) then the more the better. Both have their own markets, bothhave their own uses.
Just the way I see it.
Gyopi wrote:
JonMichael wrote:
I would like to see more of a variety of BE tissues that will enhance combat, by being added to shirts or undergarments under armor, but I don't think enhancements themselves should be available for Armor directly. Why not have Tailors have the ability to craft clothing that offers things that armor cannot i.e.: defense bonuses, speed and accuracy? What about a BE tissue added to clothing that would help reduce HAM costs? Regardless of the combat balance, armor will always be the best choice for high-level mobs and combat.... nerfed or not.
I just think clothing should be able to compliment armor, not replace it... and I think that armor should not offer enhancements like clothing can.
Let armor protect, let clothing enhance.
'JonMichael- Master Tailor/Master Image Designer
I don't think that anyone said anything about replacing armor with clothes. There is a difference between a replacement and an alternative. If you are fighting high level mobs then of course you want to wear armor. If you are out doing the Aakuan cave or gathering meat and hides then maybe there should be advantages to wearing clothes instead of armor. I really would like to see that and not be stuck with undershirts, though. Right now I crank out countless black undershirts with different mods because no one sees them so who cares what they look like! This is not much different than cranking out components and is not much fun. If I had some clothes that would allow my comabt character to dodge better or have a much higher effectiveness for center of balance, then I wouldn't be hit as much and with buffs it might be worth it to use clothes instead of armor for mid-level fighting. After all, I can take a few hits and if they don't happen very often I can recover. On the other hand, if I am going against something that hits hard then even though I might not get hit very often, when I *do* get hit I am dead. I *definitely* need armor in these cases. I know that it would take away from the armorsmith market a little, but right now clothing is just a very tiny part of the wearables market. This is not the way it was meant to be and is an unintended side effect of a few nerfs and some enhancements to different professions.
Actually, I was responding to a post where it was mentioned about clothing replacing armor:
Boooozark wrote:
I know tailors want to expand their markets, but pretty soon you'll be directly competing with armorsmiths, which I think is a bad thing. I have no qualms with tailors having BE enhanced items to help with things like surveying, sampling, etc, but when it starts cutting into the Armor market which has no other avenues for profit I see it as a threat. Just as the uproar my post caused with Tissues, I feel the same when Tailors want to get in on having clothing that can replace Armor.
I do agree with a lot of what you said... clothing should be able to enhance combat and not replace armor.
NJ62 wrote:
This draft has been revised based on your suggestions. Let me know if I'm missing anything.
Combat
In general, some tailors prefer to cater to the combat crowd by offering bioengineered clothing or clothing with sockets.
Balance with Armor
Tailors want to be able to compete with armor. As it stands there are no real disadvantages to wearing armor, and no strategic incentives to wear clothing.
This could be solved by doing the following:
- Create more of a penalty for wearing armor. A penalty might include a weapon speed decrease, or a run speed decrease. In particular, some classes should be more penalized than others. For example, teras kasi artists, known for their quick movements, should actually be more effective when not wearing heavy armor because they rely upon speed and mobility to fight.
- Create scenarios where armor wearing is not the best option strategically
- Tweak buffs so that armor is not as easy to wear
- Give very low protection stats to clothing so that it's more desirable than wearing underpants in battle
- Improve clothing stats so that it's more desirable (see below)
This is directly from your correspondant. My position is that Armor should be for protection only, any clothing that has the ability takes away from our business. The only products that Armorsmiths can currently make are specifically for protection. We can't make clothing, enhanced items, etc so we certainly don't affect your market. Armorsmiths on the other hand rely on tailors for synth cloth and reinforced FP.
So when you start saying you would like clothing to be an alternative to armor I get upset because our ONLY business is in the protection line. So in my opinion any form of clothing that can be used in place of armor should be removed. Now I'm not saying take out all clothing that has combat balances.
For example, a shirt might have def vs stun, and some melee def while a piece of armor provides kinetic resistances. These two objects are a trade off, but not one that invades the other professions business. I'm am perfectly fine with this, but once you start adding resistances to clothing it crosses the line.
Protective Gear = Armor
Fashion, Enhancing (BE), Other(Crafter Aprons)= Clothing
Boooozark wrote:
For example, a shirt might have def vs stun, and some melee def while a piece of armor provides kinetic resistances. These two objects are a trade off, but not one that invades the other professions business. I'm am perfectly fine with this, but once you start adding resistances to clothing it crosses the line.
Protective Gear = Armor
Fashion, Enhancing (BE), Other(Crafter Aprons)= Clothing
See my post in the armorsmith forum. Our correspondents comments were taken out of context and are simply some ideas for the combat rebalance summit and not something we are actively asking for. I think most of us would agree that clothing should not have resistances. If they did, they would be armor! Clothing should never be a replacement for armor, only a viable alternative.
Boooozark wrote:
NJ62 wrote:
This draft has been revised based on your suggestions. Let me know if I'm missing anything.
Combat
In general, some tailors prefer to cater to the combat crowd by offering bioengineered clothing or clothing with sockets.
Balance with Armor
Tailors want to be able to compete with armor. As it stands there are no real disadvantages to wearing armor, and no strategic incentives to wear clothing.
This could be solved by doing the following:
- Create more of a penalty for wearing armor. A penalty might include a weapon speed decrease, or a run speed decrease. In particular, some classes should be more penalized than others. For example, teras kasi artists, known for their quick movements, should actually be more effective when not wearing heavy armor because they rely upon speed and mobility to fight.
- Create scenarios where armor wearing is not the best option strategically
- Tweak buffs so that armor is not as easy to wear
- Give very low protection stats to clothing so that it's more desirable than wearing underpants in battle
- Improve clothing stats so that it's more desirable (see below)
This is directly from your correspondant. My position is that Armor should be for protection only, any clothing that has the ability takes away from our business. The only products that Armorsmiths can currently make are specifically for protection. We can't make clothing, enhanced items, etc so we certainly don't affect your market. Armorsmiths on the other hand rely on tailors for synth cloth and reinforced FP.
So when you start saying you would like clothing to be an alternative to armor I get upset because our ONLY business is in the protection line. So in my opinion any form of clothing that can be used in place of armor should be removed. Now I'm not saying take out all clothing that has combat balances.
For example, a shirt might have def vs stun, and some melee def while a piece of armor provides kinetic resistances. These two objects are a trade off, but not one that invades the other professions business. I'm am perfectly fine with this, but once you start adding resistances to clothing it crosses the line.
Protective Gear = Armor
Fashion, Enhancing (BE), Other(Crafter Aprons)= Clothing
Okay, look. I gather the feedback of the community. If someone in the community thinks this is a good idea, I put it in the document. It's that simple.
Am I endorsing it? NO, that's not my job. My job is to collect community solutions to the problem. That's it. No agenda, no secrets.
I don't see how one community member's suggestion of a solution to the problem automatically invalidates all of the tailoring community's arguments about an unrelated issue.
This is absolutely ridiculous. It's like a husband and wife are arguing because he forgot to feed the cats, and then he busts out with "well, you leave your soppy towel on the bathroom floor." Picking up the towel from the bathroom floor won't make the cats any less hungry.
Boooozark wrote:
Which is my point, I had a suggestion about Tissues in low level armors and it suddenly blew up into something much bigger.
It really shouldn't have, but it is a heated subject. Here is the problem: Lets take chitin for example. Its encumberance is so low that you might as well be wearing clothes. It is *really* easy to wear. It also automatically blocks 50% of quite a few types of attacks simply because it has resists (even if they are not very high). If it can also have the enhancements that clothes have then the only reason to choose clothing over this armor is fashion. In an ideal world this would be good enough, but lets face it, practicality always trumps fashion in this game. Such armor would completely replace BE enhanced clothes in most cases.
Boooozark wrote:
I don't see why tailors are so stuck in their ways that something where at master tailor (or another high level) could create a type of enhancer (would fit in the enhancer slot in the armor) that could have a BE mod or two in it. I'm not asking for anything major.
I think it is simply because tailors tend to be a different type of person that most other crafters. Where most other crafters get a lot of satisfaction from making something with the highest numbers possible so that they have the "best" product, tailors tend to be more visually and socially oriented and like to make the best looking outfit or find out what their customers are interested in and make it. There is nothing more satisfying than having someone come up to you with an idea of what they want to look like and then put together something that looks better than they dreamed of! Unfortunately, that is something that most of us have less and less opportunity to experience.
bradimere wrote:
i dont know if its been said before, but why not allow cloths to be worn under armor ?
It has been said before when brought up on the BE forum. There was a call for new tissues but the problem is more tissues when the current tissues are under used is a waste of development time. Kind of like a droid that will pay maintance on your house. There are two ways to go about solving that problem, 1) More clothes wearable with armor, 2) tissues go into armor. From a game mechanic point of view, there is no difference. You get the resists of the highend armor and the benefit of tissues. So if the devs aren't going to let BE tissues go into comp armor because it is over powered, why let them be worn with armor?
That leaves 3 possibilities.
1) BEs/Tailors continue to be shut out by armor.
2) Low level armors are able to take BE tissues.
3)Clothes take on resists and BE tissues.
With the current additude of 'over my dead lukku' from the tailors and the 'over my dead feet' from the armorsmiths choice 1 is going to continue to be the norm. Basically armor wins, BEs and Tailors lose. The people that want BE tissues in armor or clothes with resists are simply wanting more possibilities over the standard comp. They too lose over those closed minded protectionish additudes and the sea of comp armor at the starports remain.
The only way for this issue to be solved is for those "over my dead (insert body part here)" additudes to go away and tailors and armorsmiths to work together on a solution that will give more options. Until then those of use that want fashion choices but aren't willing to die over fashion are shut out. What needs to happen is have all 3 professions involved in the final outcome of the battleware yet have a balance between resists and function. Then everyone is in a win win situation.