Tailor Archive
Thread: Tailoring The Dying Profession!
Well, as all us tailors probably know, after the most recent Dev decision, or maybe it was just Holo's decision to stab us and make Q look like the heavy? That I don't know. But haven't you noticed business dropping off? Well, reason for that is because there is a price war going on and it has been happening for some time. It is only a matter of time before everyone has all the clothes they want or need and then they really don't have to buy anymore.
I received a tell from a tailor that mainly works the Kaadara area about cutthroat pricing. I mainly use the Bazaar for an advertising medium and when I sellanything there, I send a thank you e-mail with my waypoint to my store. So this tailor was selling Bounty Hunter packs for 1700 and I had even seen some for 2550. Well, I posted some for 995. That prompted a tell about price gouging. He wanted me to join their pricing guild.
In ways I have to agree with him. If we don't fix prices, eventually it will bring about our own doom. Already tailoring is going the way of the Architect. So what do you think? Do we need a pricing union or something? We do have to do something to insure our survival. It is obvoius that the Devs don't give a hoot about tailors and have mainly just tried to humor us.
I am on Flurry and currently I have seen 4 Masters throw in the towel. I fight daily just to break even. Expenses are killer. Three vendors that want 5K each daily. You cannot sell if you don't have a good selection of clothing. There is also maintence on the house, factory (s), and harvesters, wind machines. If you don't have them, then you are at the mercy of the pricing on the Bazaar for your needs, which include hides too if you don't hunt them yourself and with the current price war, this would definately put you out of business.
Currently the Devs are using US for their money sink. And by doing so, are killing the profession. What money sinks do the average warrior type have? He has to clone (once) and insure around 5 items on his/her person and that is it. We get stuck daily on maintenance. We work our fingers to the bone making clothes and putting up with some pretty nutty customers. The warrior types get to see the galaxy while we are almost afraid to leave town. Who is having fun here? It really doesn't take a college degree to figure out that one. Are we really needed at this point in time? Actually no. They could replace us with a few NPC vendors and get the money sink they need too. Is this really what they are thinking? Do away with tailors? Does the current path they are taking indicate this? Well, the Devs are no dummys. We price war it and we lose. Tailoring becomes a thing of the past because there is no need for it. Most tailors go onto other professions because they lost their butts and/or were disenchanted or just depressed with the whole thing. Or maybe they just quit the game. Then it would be time to move in the NPC clothing vendors. Maybe then enact clothing decay to force people into the money sink?
We are doomed unless we try to do something. But what can we do?
The current policy about clothing decaying if you get killed is bunk. I went out hunting and was incapped around 10 times. Nothing happened to my clothes. We need clothing decay which was promissed us from the beginning. Now the Devs just sweep us under the rug and move on to help the combatants which get all the attention. I guess they are the squeeky wheel or something. Maybe they are the majority of the paid subscribers? Well, if all the craftspeople just quit, then were will the warrior types get what they need? Maybe all crafts should just go on strike for awhile or something? This would bring about the doom of the whole game. Maybe it would take something like that to wake up the Devs to what they were doing that was wrong. All I know is that we need to do something. Otherwise, we go the way of the buffalo that once roamed the great plains in the U.S. We will be history.
I don't think a pricing union would work. I know of three tailors on my server selling flightsuits at 1500 each and I'm pretty sure they won't be interested in raising their prices. SWG attracts different types of players and I think that while some see themselves as taking part in a virtual economy, others see themselves as taking part in a sort of Sims-style graphical chatroom. Which is fine.
The first group play the role of businessman and price items according to what the market values them at, the second would give clothes away for free if they could (or could ona large scale anyway, we all do it sometimes). The two groups will never see things the same way. Tailoring attracts the Sims crowd a lot, I think - I wish other crafting classes did.
I'd really reccomend getting NPC vendors. They charge a lot less than the machines, although their charges will also go up soon. And if funds are scarce, I'm pretty sure you could sell those BH packs for more than you do.
I had the NPC vendors. For some reason, I was suffering from a bug that they had. They would throw clothes into the stockroom daily. I would have to put the garments all back onto them atleast once a day. How can you sell stuff if it isn't really for sale anymore? I am also very high in the Merchant field but I still get stiffed with exception of the Bazaar. I only pay 12 credits per post there which is cheap. But also the Bazaar has a 3K limit to sales and that never has changed. So the more expensive garments have to be sold on your own vendor.
As per the vendors in the Kaadara union which number 9 so far, I told them that I would meet them on prices for BH packs. Sometimes being a Tailor is downright depressing and there are other times that it is fun.
Anavlis
I think it is only natural some people will stop being tailors, to a point I am rather counting on it. Some people started on the path to being a tailor to make money, not a bad thing but over time the profit in being a tailor will reduce compare to the effort required.
Others will reach master tailor and wonder what is next, become bored with the idea and try out a different proffesion.
For some being a tailor is much more than making clothes or making money its those people I expect to stay tailors.
So I believe your wrong its not a dying profession just a changing one some people will leave others will join, as nerfs and rewards follow week after week so the joy and failings of being a tailor will come and go.
My advice is never make quick judgements when game rules change consider the long term aspect of your game play. Oh and dont forget while the grass always seem greener on the other side it is certainly not the case.
"I fight daily just to break even. Expenses are killer. Three vendors that want 5K each daily."
You have NOONE and NOTHING to blame for that but yourself and your prices.
Selling items that can easily go for 5000creditsfor 995 credits was your first problem. Perhaps if you hadn't been selling items WELL below their potential worth people wouldn't have bought them all up and now have all the dirt cheap clothes they'll EVER need because of lack of decay and the market is saturated with items because hey, it's 1/10th the price others tailors are selling it for, lets buy two! And you wouldn't be in the financial trouble you seem to be in now.
Master level architect items sell for 200k. Master level weapons sell for 50k. Master level armor sells for 150K. Yet some tailors think 14k.. 10k.. even 3k for Master Level clothing or other popular clothing is *gouging*?!!?
I'm glad people are finally starting to see the effects of throwing away their work for free is having. Hopefully prices will restablize back at prices that reflect tailor effort and skill, the global market and the sickening amount of money that's in the system rather than some silly notion of credits per resource for the better good of humanity.
I'm in agreement with Kylania here. The answer to your problem is in your post--you need to raise your prices if you can't keep up with the cost of running your business.
Some tailors like to price their items far below their market value. That's fine and they have every right to do that. My problem with it, however, is that it hurts me as well. Tailors who charge a fraction of market value typically can't offer the same level of service as tailors who price their items at a higher cost.Undercutters normallymass produce items in generic colors and list them for pennies on their vendors. What you see is what you get--custom orders are either ignored or filled slowly.
This is where it begins to hurt me. I normally charge 7000 or so for master tailor items that are done any way you want them. This includes fashion advice, matching colors to existing items, doing remakes, getting the desired number of sockets, and giving items custom names. The problem with people who sell master tailor items for 2000 credits is that it changes people's expectations of me. This is how a typical conversation may look:
Customer: Hi, can you make me a heavy flight suit? I want it in the same color as my shirt.
Me: Sure! I've e-mailed you the waypoint to my store. Please stop by and I'll do my best to match it!
Customer: Ok. How much will it cost?
Me: I normally do flight suits for 7000 credits in any way you'd like them.
Customer: Uhh.. so-and-so has them for 2000.
Me: I'm sorry, but 7000 is my price. You're more than welcome to buy them from him if you'd like.
Customer: He doesn't have a matching color on his vendor. Can't you do them for 2000 too?
...and this is how undercutters affect me. "Undercutters are only hurting themselves," some people say. "We're not doing anything wrong because the game allows us to do it," some undercutters will say. Those points can be argued either way,I suppose. But I place undercutters in the same category as mission stealers. Mission stealers are only hurting themselves because the mission owner still recieves the reward, no? And mission stealers aren't doing anything wrong because the game allows them to steal missions, no? The fact of the matter is that experience and faction benefits from missions matter just as much as the credit rewards. The game also allows you to spam players repeatedly with rude or harrassing tells, but that doesn't make it right. The difference here is that I can't place undercutters on an /ignore list.
After a few minutes of exchanging tells, I'm usually able to convince them to buy their items from me. At the end of the transaction, though, many people still walk away feeling like they were entitled to a 2000 credit flight suit. Repeat this scene 20 or more times and you have my typical SWG day.
I view tailoring as a service-oriented profession like image designers. Yes, we do sell goods, but the brunt of our orders (well, mine at least) come from custom orders where people want things highly customized. Do image designers spend a lot of time discussions options with their customers? Yes. Does it cost them anything extra? No. Do they deserve to be paid for their extra time and effort? Most definitely yes. And tailors should be in the same boat.
I live practically next door the the "infamous" lowballer tailor (snowleeper) and I have no problem at all keeping higher prices. Not sure what facet it is but I am finding havin good selection and curteous service to be constant feedback from customers when they buy stuff.
So I must assume that many tailors do not do that.
So .... *do the math* 
Crowdecaf wrote:
And WHO decides what price is under cutting? You?
No, undercutting isn't as clear as black and white. If I sell one flightsuit to a friend for 1000 credits but continue to charge everyone else 7000, am I undercutting the market? Most people would think not. If I have my vendor stocked with 50 master tailor items, all priced at 2000 credits, is that undercutting? Many would say yes. It's just like Justice Stewart's famous statement on pornography, "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it." I know undercutting when I see it.
I find what you said ironic. In fact, you yourself wanted to start a sort of tailoring OPEC complete with price fixing. In fact, here's your original post proposing it:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Kettemoor&message.id=23367&highlight=#M23367
So, as you see, undercutting must be a problem where you play as well. How are you defining undercutting?
Yeah we have undercutters on bloodfin too. Some of them are rude enough to callother tailors "overhyped ripoffs"who would dare charge for their effort, time, expertiese, superior resources, tailoring knoweldge, and good customer service. I really wish they would realize they don't need to undercut in order to compete. If the service and quality is good you will get customers. You don't need to broadcast that you're cheap, unless you really are that desperate.
Some people don't care about what a GOOD tailor has to offer and just wants the cheapest price, to be honest those are not the customers we want anyway. Let them go to the lowballers who won't be able to keep up with their demand, let alone run a professional business with any finesse.
People who care that you use good materials, pay attention to them, try to offer advice on color and garment combination, etc. will pay your price.
I've mentioned some of my prices here now and again -- and I know very well that they do not conform to, for instance, Nivea's price list. Then again, no Master Tailors that I know of on our planet, in our galaxy, conform at all strictly to that list.
Do we undercut each other? Sometimes. Dusters seem to have settled into a set price, somehow (possibly because some very courteous folks ask around to find what others are selling them for, and set their prices to the very same). You can reliably buy certain items on the bazaar for the same price, day in, day out. But I know for a fact that my flightsuits go for a good thousand more than some others', and that my sports wraps, for instance, seem to go for a good deal more. Technically, I may well be an undercutter. I am running a business here, and I like to price competitively. I also price by what will sell, and on our server, some things simply don't sell for the amazing prices you see elsewhere...and I don't see why they necessarily should.
It's the architects that I feel bad for, the folks who are barely turning a profit, not because of undercutting but because people don't want to shell out over 100k for a medium house -- which they should, if you take weaponsmith markups as a model. But honestly, to complain because someone is selling a ball gown for 5k instead of 15k strikes me as nothing short of ridiculous; with the prices I use (currently 5k for most master items) I am turning a very comfortable profit indeed, while funding both myself and a heavily-grinding weaponsmith. And believe me, that isn't cheap to do.. *grins*
What I really take offense to, though, is the idea that anyone who 'undercuts' is doing so by mass-producing garments in a factory. I have yet to make anything but components in a factory. My favourite work is custom orders: numerous customers want great quantities of outfits in themed colours, want items that simply aren't available on vendors in general (my own included...my vendor is more a side-business to me than anything). They love the personal service, and the fact that I will make their items as swiftly as is humanly possible for them. They love coming in to chat about a new look they want to try out, love modelling garments for their friends. Customers value reliable service, friendly service. They value the feel of having something made just for them -- and apparent undercutters can indeed to that without their profits suffering in the slightest. It is possible to run a viable business without charging five figures for anything, and to have fun doing it. (Disclaimer: this isn't a reference to selling Masterclass items for 1000 each, which is, undeniably, silly.)
Anemonie, we think too much alike. It's scary!
I have been a tailor from day 1. I never did grinding. I always have had such a constant business from day one that I have never lowered my prices, and my vendor constantly sells out. I'm one of the ones that the other tailors scream about, saying I charge too much. Am I afraid? No.
See I provide a service. There is not a customer who leaves my shop that is not satisfied with his purchase. I make sure of it, and I provide that service in a friendly professional manner. You can come by my shop and most nights there is an entertainer or two hanging around playing music or dancing. Last Saturday was Warm Hat day. Every customer left with a free warm hat, no matter the purchase. It was fun to go to Bestine and see all the people wearing those silly hats. It's all what you make of it people. This is a game I play to enjoy. Try different things, give away hats. Hire entertainers to come hang out or give a new entertainer clothes if he/she advertises your wares in his macro. Get a large house and decorate it tastefully. It MATTERS. Why would people want to buy clothes in a place with mismatched furniture?
The days I go out and hunt, or do questing I get many tells wondering when I will be back in my shop. It's all what you make of it folks. Customer service is where its at folks, anddo not undervalue yourself. You provide something they want. Also please consider your starting artisans and wanna be tailors. If a master tailor sells something extremely cheap, how the heck is the new guy on the block going to even have a chance?