Swordsman Archive
Thread: Before they do the same to you, please help us in speaking out
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BlindTyldak
Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:16 am
#1
To all players of SWG:
As you know, Publish Nine brought a great many changes to the game, many of which we are still discovering the effects of. The profession of Creature Handler has come to discover something that down the road could ultimately affect every profession here. As we, like many others, are a very undesirable profession right now due to bugs and ineffectiveness, we are a very small voice in a big crowd due to people abandoning it. However, this issue is of such scope that we are hoping that the other professions will stand with us against this, lest it also affect you down the road. We ask for you to please just take a couple of moments to read this, and a couple of minutes to make a post or two.
I just want to first very quickly point out that this is not a "Jedi" issue, this is a "Developer Judgement" issue. We do not wish to point fingers at the Jedi players, because they are not the ones who created this code.
It has come to our attention that Jedi have the ability to take control of our pets in PvP and turn them against their masters; apparently they've had this ability for a while, but we didn't know about it until now due to the changes in the Jedi class and they all came out of hiding and into the fore of the game. In essence, they have the ability totake away our own weapon and class and turn it against us. There is no other class in the game where Jedi can take their weapon away from their target, and not only attack the target with their lightsaber/force powers/what have you, but with the targets own weapon simultaniously, leaving the target powerless to attack back. There is a loophole to this power that by giving our pets commands again we MAY be able to regain control in a fight, but due to bugs that have existed since launch, we have severe problems communicating with our pets sometimes, a bug that affects players in different ways. So our "out" from this meathod of force attack is potentially unavailable to many of us.
We are not asking for invulnerability from Jedi or anything of the nature. Jedi can still cut our pets down in almost no time, and even the Jedi admit that this is a useless skill in strict combat; they would much rather force choke our pets for 6k a shot. But with the coming combat reballance, we have no idea how effective our pets will be. In three months, our pets may actually stand a chance of some sort, and the ability to disarm us and attack us in this fashion would be instant death for any CH. All we ask for is that the ability for Jedi to take command of our pets be removed, so that we may use them as we were intended to do.
Where this affects everyone is that if the Devs can do it to us, they can do it to you too. We need to get the point across to them that giving Jedi, or ANY class, the ability to completely disable a specific class of player and use their class against them is unacceptable. This is the equivilent of a force power that would make you stick your blaster to your head and pull the trigger, or poison yourself intentionally. It's the equivilent of a player being able to force a dancer or a musician to stop performing if there is a TEF'd character in the cantina. It's the equivilent of making you take off your armor and your weapon, handing them to the Jedi, and the Jedi using them while he cuts you down with his own skills.
NO PROFESSION SHOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO COMPLETELY REMOVE ANOTHER CLASS'S WEAPONS,ABILITIES, ANDDEFENSE AND USE THEM THEMSELVES.
ALL PLAYERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE THEIR CHOSEN CLASS AS IT WAS INTENDED WITHOUT ANOTHER PLAYER TAKING IT AWAY FROM THEM AT ANY TIME.
Please show your support for these statements by posting here, and also by taking a moment to post in the Creature Handler forums. We really need your help in getting this message across to the Developers that this is unacceptable for any profession, and do it in a manner that does not turn into a Jedi/Anti-Jedi flame fest. Again, this issue is with the DEVELOPERS, not the players.
The next class that this happens to could be your own. We need to stop this now.
Soulburner69
Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:29 am
#2
not trying to be detremental to your cause, but arent pets supposed to be for backup, and not a strict combat thing? meaning who in their right mind would go out in the field and have just their pets as a weapon, without a weapon, or a combative skill to protect themself? i know you probabally have both ch and a combat skill, but the way you're saying it is (from what i understand from reading your post) is that you're using your pets as your only weapon, and not having (for example) swordsman as a personal combat class so you can do things, instead of having your pets, ect out and attacking for you?
just wondering is all 
AriasImmortal
Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:11 am
#3
A VERY small percentage of the Jedi population will actually take the Force Powers tree. And even if they do, it's a lot more effective to just beat the pets down.
CH was **edit**ed over worse than this a long time ago, specifically when buffs and armor became mainstream and relatively cheap.
CH was **edit**ed over worse than this a long time ago, specifically when buffs and armor became mainstream and relatively cheap.
drezbizkit
Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:30 am
#4
To comment on Soulburner69
To bring up the point of other professions should not be relevant in this discussion. How often do we swordsman get mad, when we try to argue issues of kiting, and such, and someone comes in and says, well you shouldn't PvP unless you have Rifleman, or some other ranged profession. Lets requote Soulburner69 "...who in their right mind would go out in the field and have just their sword as a weapon, without a ranged weapon..." The assumption that the ch has a combat skill is a bad one I think. The real issue, is that they are turning the entire class profession back on themselves.
To comment on AriasImmortal
The comments made are first, that the power is weak, and noone will use it, because a force choke will be more effective. Well, to respond to that, how do you know what will be more effective after the Combat Rebalance(CB)? Regardless, now, I think it would be quite effective. Why? because, to me, it would be far more effective to turn the creature on its owner, because, if you force choke, you turn a 1 (jedi) vs 2 (ch and pet) to a 1 vs 1, whereas if you turn the pet, it goes from a 1 (jedi) vs 2 (ch and pet) to a 2 (jedi and pet) vs 1 (ch). Far more effective from my point of view.
To comment on the original poster BlindTyldak
Well, I think it sucks. The only way for you to take control of your pet is to reteach it a command is pretty bad, and a poor design. If anything, something more combat oriented, should be more applicable. I think that the issues of pets is a balance concern, and the ability to turn them, isn't necessarily a bad idea. Post CB, a MCH can pull out a lvl 70 pet. That pet will probably be pretty effective, and will probably need to have a weakness, and Jedi turning might be that weakness. Although, the need to do a time consuming process, is too bad. I think that the ability to have a "retame" command or something might be more effective. Similar to the original tame command, but just the ability to have CH to regain control over the pet.
The issue I can see coming up, is something really more worrisome for the ranged combat professions, then us Melee peeps. I can see in the future, where Jedi will be able to deflect the ranged fire, back at the person firing the gun. Something that has been seen in many other star wars games, and can be potentially unbalancing.
Jiman
Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:17 pm
#5
I have mixed feelings on this issue.I think it's plausible for the Jedi to be able to "turn" a pet against it's owner using force powers, but there should be a limit such as the Jedi must continue to use force powers to maintain control. to counter this, the CH should be able to issue another attack command to the pet. It would then become a "battle of wills" so to speak.
another option might be that if the Jedi sucessfully controls the pet, it loses it's target and randomly selects another target to attack (sort of like confusing it). the CH would then have to regain control of the pet by issuing an attack command to the right target.
another option still might be that they add a state such as confused such that similar to the dizzy the pet remains confused and randomly attacks targets until the state is either healed or wears off. They could then create a pet STIM for /heal confusion and the CH would have to apply the heal then reissue the attack command to take control of the pet again.
We often think that it is "unfair" when one class of character gains "an edge" against another, but if all profs were exactly equal, then what would be the fun in that? personally, I think it's a little crazy that a TKM can take out someting as big as a Rancor quicker than say a Commando. Think about what would do more harm in reality.... bare hands and feet, or an LLC or Flamethrower?? So, this isn't a world of reality based activities, it's fantasy based and themed. The Jedi were some of the most powerful forces in the Star Wars realm. No person could even begin to stand against a powerful wielder of the force (either dark or light) and even the best Bounty Hunters had to rely on stealth and subterfuge to take down a Jedi. If all were fair, BHs would get random missions spawned for EVERY CHARACTER that gains enough negative faction points with any "underworld" group, but then everyone would cry about being killed by a BH cuz they beat up ona bunch of Jabba factioned cronies.
Basically, there will always be stronger classes and weaker classes. learn to play a class for the attributes of the class, not because you want to be "super-omnipotent-omniscient" beings. If you want to be that super, stick to a console game where you can enter cheats and be all powerful.
this is a community based game that only works if everyone does their share. there would be no weapons if not for the weaponsmiths, and no armor if not for the armorsmiths, no foods if not for the chefs and no buffs if not for the docs, no heals if not for the medics, etc, etc, etc. So, join in the community and enjoy it, or not... your choice, but don't whine about "this class is better than mine".
ok, the flaming may commence!!!
veegen
Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:18 pm
#6
Well like some others have mentioned I dont think this skill will be a very big problem for CH players as not many will use/have it, but still like you said the CB might change this.
And I also want to add that CH hasnt been effective in PvP (and especially not against jedis) for a veeeery long time.
Anyways, you are correct that it totally sucks that someone can destroy your only weapon, but the Devs of this game do everything for the few jedis there are no matter what that does to the rest of the community (so far I have seen nothing to prove that statement wrong). But I would wait till the combat balance to see what changes are made to CH to counter this jedi power, and just wait in general, cuz it seems like everything is on hold untill the CB (except for jedi fixes of course).
Redondo
Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:00 pm
#7
/agree with Jiman's ideas. And I agree with the original poster in that this is bad for CH. More importantly, I saw this happen on my server a couple of weeks ago. Two light jedi turned 4 pets on their owners, and to top it off, they were AT-STs. It was around two bases with probably 20-30 imperials milling about after a couple of failed attempts by the rebels to take them. And the jedi moved in and turned the pets. I drove my swoop through to confirm that this had happened. Although this was pretty funny from a rebel standpoint, I can see where this is way too much power and crippling for people who rely on pets.
Blutzoll
Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:02 pm
#8
RangerDemon
Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:03 pm
#9
I think that it would be good if they put a limit on the Jedi ability to turn pets against owner. I mean something like a knight can only turn pet lvl 30 and below agains their owners or something. I think will stick closer to the movie, as you had seen on Esp. II attack of the clone, when Obiwan was capture by the geneosian, he couldn't turn the enhance klinik on to its master. I understand that 75% of jedies are big baby, however the dev should not give out candies to cried baby and ignore the rest of the mature community in this game.
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