CUEmu - Thread Posts

Ldwater

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:25 am

This is not a rant, just an observation and suggestion. Please feel free to discuss and try not the flame me too much

Melee Damage Mitgation:

Say for example, that I was fighting X npc, who had the same skills and 2 weapons, one melee and another ranged that did the same damage, as the system currently stands, if the npc used the ranged weapon they would compleatly bypass any mitigation defences I have!?

So, where is the incentive to use the melee weapon?

In the same situation, in a more realistic context, the melee's combatants first job would be to disable / destroy / deflect the opponents ranged weapon so it couldn't be used in combat. Its like trying to defend yourself from a huge guy with an axe with a rifle.. your not going to be holding your rifle for very long!

Solution: Now, I know that the devs will never add the ability to destory opponents weapons, but im thinking either force the weapon to be unequiped, or make the weapon extreamly inaccurate, regardless of modifiers, because the system at the moment means that to defeat any melee combatant is to just run in circles and keep out of range.

Kiting:

I know that this issue really annoys me at least, and im sure it annoys other melee players too, and a suggestion on the IC 1-15 Swordsman tread was a short burst of speed attack, like a mini burst run, which I like to call a charge!

In any melee conforntation you usually find that the charge is the single most potent attack that combatant will ever use, simply because of the added speed / momentum which is to be unleased onto their victim. In SWG, we seem to casually run upto our opponents, and when they run, just follow and lag behind a little, like a little puppy after its master..

Now, when they run, its not advancing in reverse and its not 'moving to a better location', it fleeing! Its running away for there lives! This action in itself if anything, improves the chances of survival simply because the opponent then exploits the melee class's inability to catch up, and the ranged player can still attack, if only slightly inpaired because of them moving.

Solution: Add a charge! Possably at Novice Brawler, the action itself is a mini burst run which the player can then 'attach' a attack on (rather than using a default attack). This would be on a short timer (say 30 secs - min) and would possably only last for 5-10 seconds, but just enough time to catch up and make that initial / final attack!Not only would this add an added element for melee classes to make them more interesting, but also remove alot of the problems with kiting!

Simply put, these suggestions are supposed to make ranged classes fear melee. If a melee and ranged class were in combat, the melee class should win everytime, where as if the ranged player had distance, then they should win.

I can already hear ranged players saying "Well, we should be able to defend ourselves" and I have no problem with that, but the case is simple: Your advantage is range. If you dont kill me before I get to you, then thats your advantage used up.. now its time to use mine

-ldwater

DrPiezo

Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:52 am

#2

IMO pvp in this game isn't supposed to be all 1on1 duels, melee vs ranged. Melee fighters really seem to shine when there are several people involved in a fight. The long range people get confused or flustered by the several red dots, and many times a melee can charge in and wreck them pretty easily. If it IS just one on one, there is no reason for you to take the bait and charge the person, knowing that they will kite you. If you are in town you can hide in or behind buildings and wait for them to either come to you, or be distracted by someone else. If you insist on charging a ranged fighter who will kite you, be sure to burst run, and spam warcry(2) when you start getting close. Also, when you get inclose, make sure touse your lunge1 or lunge2 moves to slow them down. If the person is a mod stacker and hard to hit, use intimidate. The tools to kill ranged fighters are allat your disposal. Of course a ranged person will kite, it would be stupid for them to do otherwise, but you don't need to let yourself be kited.

There have already been a few changes made in the favor of melee recently. All melee attacks have a 10m range now, which is pretty significant. This made kiting much less effective. /follow has also been modified to follow closer while in combat. Once you /follow a gun fighter, they are not going to be able to shake you, and will be suffering huge accuracy penalties(except some pistols).

Another thing about this game is the fact that you have a LOT of points to mess around with. More than enough to master a ranged and a melee profession(and STILL have a good amount of points to dabble), giving yourself much more flexibility as well as both forms of mitigation. I personally took master swordsman/brawler, AND rifleman. I now have the choice to pick which targets to keep at arms length, and which to get close with and melee. I was originally all melee, but got sick of getting dizzy/kd by tka, which seem to make up half my servers population. Now if i see any opponent with a VK equipped, i just run backwards and shoot them. Having melee is also great for when things get messy, and people get inside 20m or so. I have a macro that puts on armor, switches to sword, and hits COB.

And for all those pesky TKA, my headhit3 macro has a /deathblow after every hit. hehe.

Anyways, my point is basically that kiting is a perfectly acceptable thing to do, because it has many ways to be countered. The only people who don't understand this are generally the people that just charge directly at the guy holding the gun, without thinking about tactics.

Not flaming, just thinking out loud about the issue

ZechtWisto

Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:04 am

#3

Just one comment, since i've played both ranged and melee professions.

There is a small margin of time between when a ranged person can fire at an approaching brawler, and when they're right next to eachother. If your idea of ranged people worked, the brawler should be dead before they reach the ranged person (theoretically). If not, then the brawler would be atgood range and begin to pummel the ranged person. However, the battle is now in the hands of the brawler, once the brawler is in range, he will stay in range. You won't run away when you fight a ranged person, thats just retarded. The time it takes for you to run up to a ranged person compared to the time of the rest of the battle is a BIG difference... The devs gaveyou lunge, which evenhas theability to knock you down, andyou have a burst run, use them. If you don't like being able to be kited, ask the ranged person how he'd feel if he had to just stand in front of you the whole battle and take it... Wouldn't be too much of an argument i think

Not a flame just some constructive criticism

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DrFunkatron

Ldwater

Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:27 am

#4

Thanks for the comments guys, they are welcomed.

Firstly, im really basing this observation on PvE rather than PvP (since I dont do much of it). I agree that lunge1/2 is there (and I do use it) but in its current incarnation, the accuracy sucks and I can never hit, and yeah, when the accuracy thing is fixed then lunge will be more effective against kiters, and for that I would be happy.

The idea of using burst run is ok, but it a one hit wonder type of special, since once its used, you cant use it again after a while, so that limits its effectiveness in combat, especially if I am fighting multiple opponents. Eg, I fight one guy, he kites, I use burst run, kill him, move onto the next, and then they kite me too, but then I cant use my burst run..

The charge idea is not really that special, its just something that could be used to resolve some of the kiting issues.

As for ranged professions having to stand there and take it; I dont expect them to, and I played a pistoleer at one point, and I know that I didn't, but they should at that point be ready to loose, as its the advantage of the brawler.

Maybe some of these issues will be address in the combat changes, like improved accuracy of weapons etc to make lunge more effective, I am just adding some ideas into the mix.

-ldwater

DrPiezo

Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:29 am

#5

As far as pve, i can't really comment much on that. I leveled entirely on melee only mobs.(even rifleman. 2 sword bleeds...wait...headshot with cdef rifle).

Ldwater

Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:49 am

#6

Heh, well im grinding through Imp missions, which usually consist of 3-5 rebels in one base. Sometimes they have the courage to fight back, but most of the time they run!

In that situation, I expect to get pummeled by blaster fire by the other free guys, so I buff and take spice, and stim to stay alive while I smash them up

The annoying part is when they run off, and I spam lunge1 and never hit, so they keep running and keep shooting..

-ldwater

ShadowGod69

Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:13 am

#7

easy problem fix give at the master level a skill that is like

"After years of training you have gained incressed stamina and speed... you are now able to close distances much faster.. "

end effect 10% faster normal run speed.. not burst run... just give us a little edge when running some one down...

might also toss in 25% faster burst run... with lowered timer....

so ranges still gets in there shots and tanks at least have a fighting chance..

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raider7734

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:39 pm

#8

I think I have agoodidea for this area, so I'll share it.

What if theymade the Lunges work like this:

Effect #1: posture down or KD(as usual)

Effect #2: you warp 5 meters closer(you're lunging towards them, remember). Timer limited to one 'warp' every 5 seconds (this timer is independent from the posture down and KDtimers)

Range of Effect #2 is infinite... you can lunge a rifleman at 60 meters but you will only gain 5 meters each time

This way,Lungewould become a true 'catching' move. You coulduse itto gain 5 meters on your opponent every 5 seconds,so you are on average1 meter per second faster, tops, butthere is a definite HAM cost for doing so. And when you get close enough, they are in range for the KD.

Ranged fighters could still kite us, but they couldn't do it forever. We would havea way to gain on them a little bit, and they still have the option ofslowing us down with suppression fire, not to mention the various ranged knockdowns that are out there.

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OnlyMaestro

Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:06 pm

#9

Come on...we've all seen the massive *OUT OF RANGE* Spams we get when chasing a target that is 2m distance from us.

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Thread: Ranged vs Melee (bit long)