Swordsman Archive
Thread: SWORDSMEN'S ROUND TABLE: In the beginning there was a swordsman...
Allright, as a person with martial experience IRL, this is how I see it:
A sword of any kind is dangerous in the hands of the right person, let me explain why... a lighter sword weilded in one hand (Fencer) allows for quick, annoying, accurate attacks. By using a sword in one hand and combining that skill with the right footwork, one could stay mildly out of harms way. However, because that sword is light, defense becomes a problem. A heavier sword just knocks you down or destroys your blade. When you use a sword in two hands it is usually because the blade is longer, or heavier. You need the second hand for two reasons: A) The strength to hold the weapon, B) The strength to control the weapon. Once a heavy sword picks up momentum its neigh impossible to stop, but its easy to get out of the way (duck or jump). Because the sword is heavier, you would expect defense to be more difficult, however this is not the case! The second hand allows for the control and speed to stop most other melee attacks, but only if you sacrifice major offensive ability. A pike (polearm weapons) has tremendously long range, is blindingly fast, andhas centrifical force behind its power. When you think about it, it should be easier to hit with a pike than a sword becuase its so much bigger and has more reach. Hoever, that pike/pole carries you with it once you get moving, so defense becomes a big problem. Therefore, defense with a pike comes down to your armor, not your ability to dodge or parry. On unarmed combat: As an unarmed combatatant, you don't have much range, and the damage you can do is limited by your physical strength. But you don't have a weapon to slow you down or focus on. This gives you the ability to focus on your opponent's moves and attacks and wait for the perfect time to strike a critical area and then get out of their range.
That being said I would rate the classes like this:
Fencer: Quick, mildly accurate, not very damaging attacks with lots of status changes, almost no chance to wound
Swordsman: Slightly slower than a fencer, but more accurate and damaging, not many status changes but more chance to wound
Pikeman: Slower than a swordsman, but more accurate and more damaging. Almost no status changes, but more posture attacks than you can count (standing to prone for example)
Unarmed Combat: Slowest of all (you have to wait for oppourtounity! Rush in and you'll get hit where it hurts) Most accurate and damaging of all attacks, mild blend of status and posture attacks.
Thats my rating of the melee classes; now here's a suggestion: In another SW game for the PC, lightsaber combat was handled in stances. Use stance based combat for melee! Give the player the option to take a defensive stance (lowering damage, speed, and accuracybut make them much harder to hit and more resistant to damage) or an offensive stance (crazy go nuts damage, speed, and accuracybut you take more damage, and are easier to hit). And I don't mean this Center of Being and Beserk junk. I'm talking about FOOTWORK and weapon position. Stuff that can be done in addition to whats allready there. Whats more is that a stance is permanant and can't be changed untill you learn a new skill (okay, maybe thats TOO far, but you have to make stance change difficult). Or maybe no stance at all with no modifiers to anything.
The future is in the DEV's hands, please make sure they give equal love and treatment to the blastmonkeys (Commandos), the Ninja (TKA), the Deprived (Pikemen), and everyone else.
-Ijmoi
I don't think it should be divided up simply by ranking in terms of offense and defense. Each one has a distinct "flavor" in my mind. For swordsmen, here's how I see it.
The heavy swordsman (patterned after the medieval Man-at-arms, the Japanese Samurai, or the English or Celt Greatswordsmen) was a front-line damage dealer. One on one, they followed the idea that the best defense is a good offense, and counterattacks were a large part of that. I think watching the Last Samurai shows a good example. You don't see as much in the way of parrying as you do simply stepping aside and into your swing while your opponent is exposed.
Also, while a heavy swordsman should be good in a duel due to their overpowering offense, they are far better in situations with multiple enemies, where they allow for their swift strikes from one hit to another to allow them to prevail against multiple adversaries, so long as those adversaries are not overly defensive.
I think the current theme of the swordsman is right on target. It's the balance that's wrong. Counterattack needs to have its frequency increased to the point that a master can expect 3-4 counterattacks per fight, and counterattacks should always hit in the upper 50% of the damage range, since they are, by nature, performed against an opponent who is far more open to attack than normal. Also, there should be no limit to the number of attackers that can be counterattacked at one time. Thus, the more enemies we face, the higher our damage, as we will have a chance to counter attack each and every time we recieve an attack from within melee range (even a ranged attack from within melee range) regardless of the source. Our specials, with all their area effect attacks, are good. But we need other types of attacks too. Maybe one that works as an area effect intimidate or something. Dizzy would be overpowered, and I don't think we need a knockdown. If the speed caps go in place, we should have a speed cap of 2.5, but our current offense should be raised to compensate.
As for defense, our defense should revolve not around our ability to avoid a hit, but our ability to take a hit. Damage mitigation, armor, and meleedefense should be the only thing that fills the gaps left by counterattack. A "heavy" swordsman does not have the luxury of highly mobile weapons with which to parry, nor is it easy to dodge when swinging a piece of steel that weighs 10-20 pounds or more. While our offense gets higher and higher the more enemies we take on, during multiple enemy encounters, we quickly become stim sponges for the docs and combat medics. The trick of a good group will be to find a way to keep a swordsmanon his feetwhile he does his offensive magic.
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While I'm here, I might as well outline how I see the other melee professions. I'll start with how I see pikeman going. Pikemen, historically speaking, were the cream of the crop of defensive units on the battlefield. Heavily armored with pikes that were sometimes in excess of 15' long, they lined up together to form a wall of sharp pointy things that could deter any charge, whether horse or foot soldier. Typically, they lined up at least3-4 ranks deep for the best effectiveness.
Now, how does this translate into the game? One on one, a polearm is a fairly defensive weapon. You canblock with it, because it's well balanced. You can chop or stab with it and cause tremendous damage. But it's still not as fast as a good pair of rapiers, and people wielding a lighter weapon and wearing lighter armor can usually side-step your attacks with relative ease. Special attacks should revolve around knockdowns and AE knockdowns. I don't think dizzy moves should be a part of it at all, any more so than it should be for swordsman. Pikemen should have a longer attack range than most melees, however, and should have quite a few pikeman specific lunge type specials. One should forceably dismount any mounted or vehicle riding target, one should cause a target to stop moving or at least slow their movement rate for a short period of time (5 to8 seconds if there's an immunity timer, or 1-2 seconds if there isn't, preferably the latter as it's meant to impede the enemy's progress and not make them a sitting duck), and one should be the same as the current lunge, but with slightly more damage. They should have the lowest one-on-one damage output, but this is mitigated some by their AE moves, knockdowns, longer range, and unsurpassed tanking ability. Once the speed caps go in place, a pikeman should have a speed cap of about 5.5
Defensively, the pikeman should have a fairly high block rate, and should be able to block any targetfrom anyrange. Their HAM costs should be tuned to encourage them to wear heavy armor (i.e. light costs per move, proportionately speaking). This may also be the best class to bring back the old version of block that was concieved but never implemented during beta, where a character could immobilize themselves while turning on their collision detection, thus physically blocking ranged shots and enemy movement. Another neat idea would be to add a skill cumulative group defensive skill mod that applies to other pikemen in the group (i.e., the more pikemen in your group, the more defensive each one becomes). Also, because block uses the weapon to absorb a hit, there should be a chance (albeit a small one) that each hit you block degrades the condition of your weapon. This chance should be based on the overall durability of your weapon. The more durable it is, the lower the chance that its durability is decreased. Thus, offensive pikemen will have to replace their weapons more often, while defensive pikemen can buy weapons with experimented durability, so they can save their money for better armor.
The important thing to note here, however, is that the pikeman must stress defense above all else. While by no means a weakling due to their huge hits giving them good frontloaded damage, their specials are primarily used for applying their secondary abilities and not increasing damage, so their damage multipliers should be lower across the board. If possible, tune it so that at master, the pikeman has the highest single-hit damage of any melee class, but the lowest fire rate and DPS.
If they ever allow attacking from mounts, pikemen will become dually important. Not only will they get more mileage out of their frontloaded damage by being able to ride in and lay down a hit, then ride out, but they'll also be important in that they can dismount other riders.
Fencer:
The fencer is the all out one on one melee class. They are duelists, tuned to take on one target and only one target. Thus, the only AE attack they have is the spin attack, and they only get as high as spin attack 2. They have quite a number of single target attacks though, and both the parry and dodge defensive mods. Their per-hit damage is slightly higher than the TKA, but less than 40% of the heavy swordsman, and maybe only 30% of the pikeman's.
Offensively, they get all the tools they need to win a one on one duel. Dizzy attacks, scatter hits, knockdowns, and high multiplier moves, all single target. The price they pay is their HAM costs, meaning that while they can easily take out a single opponent, they may not have enough "juice" to take on more than 2 or 3 enemies at a time, whereas, a swordsman or pikeman would choose to live among two or three enemies almost constantly. As far as overall damage, fencers should be a close second to the swordsman in terms of one-on-one DPS. Fencers should recieve dual wield, further increasing their damage capacity. Once the speed caps go in place, they should have a speed cap of about 1.5, or 2.0 when dual wielding.
Defensively speaking, Parry should be a rather unique skill, in which the parry rate is affected both by the speed of your weapon and the number of weapons you're wielding. This parry modifier should be based on your uncapped speed, meaning that offensive fencers will want slower weapons since they will be more effective after hitting their cap, but defensive fencers will want faster weapons despite having hit the cap long before. Parry only works against your current combat target, but that is compensated by a high rate of parrying, especially when dual wielding fast weapons. Dodge, however, works against all targets in melee range. Dodge should be based on the total armor encumberance. The more encumberance, the less likely you are to dodge. This will encourage fencers, especially master fencers with higher dodge skill,to be lightly armored and rely solely on their dodge and parry skills to protect them from harm.
Teras-Kasi Artist
Teras-Kasi Artists are unique in that their abilities do not totally revolve around actual combat, but also what they do before and after combat. Teras Kasi is as much a physical art as it is amental one, and they should recieve special moves that reflect this. Also, rather than special move "lines" like the other professions recieve, each special move should be uniquely designed to fill a particular niche.
Before a fight, TKA's should have the ability to focus their thoughts on the battle ahead. This focus works similar to dancing buffs, in that the longer they focus before a fight, the more powerful this buff becomes. The speed of application, cap, and durationfor this focus buff increases as the meditation skill increases. The buff itself increases accuracy, and defensive abilities, and decreases HAM costs. It requires a cool-down time after the buff wears off, however, but this period can be reduced significantly through meditation. During the cool down period, accuracy and defensive abilities drop below their pre-buff values, and HAM costs are similarly penalized.
TKA's get a fair mix ofspecial moves. They retain their knockdown + dizzy move, and have several AE attacks that inflict status effects such as blind, stun, and even knockdown. They also have single target power moves capable of unleashing serious damage on par with a pikeman, but at the cost of significant delay and HAM cost. They have the lowest speed cap at 1.0, and thus their true power lies in their standard attacks, and the speed and power with which they are delivered. Rather than a swordsman or fencer who spams specific attacks back to back, TKA's use their attacks as starting or finishing moves, or to get themselves out of a sticky situation. In this way, TKA's are the Commandos of melee. They can dishoutsignificantdamage without their specials, but their super high damagepower movesare generally reserved for times when the delay incurred will not make as much of a difference.
Defensively, TKA's are third in one-on-one defense, and second in multiple on one defense. They getHand block and advanced dodge.Handblock allows them to block an attack from any source within melee range, but without a chance to degrade their weapon. Unlike normal block, hand block doesn't block ranged attacks (you don't want to stop a blaster bolt with your hand, trust me). Advanced dodge allows them to dodge an attack from any source, regardless of range, and the dodge rate increases significantly in the absence of armor. Master TKA's are the only melee who can consistantly close from max range to melee range untouched. They're also the only melees who will be fighting without any armor whatsoever... even fencers will want a little armor protection.
One thing to note here is that as I said, Teras Kasi is as much mental as it is physical. A TKA who doesn't use their meditation related skills (Power boost, the new Focus, etc) should be fighting almost at half their normal strength. Thus, catching a TKA unprepared should be a rather easy fight, whereas a TKA who has spent the time neccessaryto prepare themselves should be tougher than any melee opponent other than Jedi.
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If we do it this way, eachprofession has a very unique play style that doesn't translate to the other professions, which is the way it should be. Professions shouldn't be simply a choice of what kind of weapons you like, but how you want to play the game. Fencers are one-on-one masters who can defeat any other melee one-on-one using bursts of high damage, high cost back to back specials. In melee range, their defense makes them almost untouchable, but their lack of armor causes them to drop quickly to multiple adversaries or ranged attackers.
TKA's are primarily one-on-one fighters, and when powered up, can dish similar damage to fencers. While they lack the one-on-one defensive abilities of the fencer, they aren't far behind, and all of their defensive abilities apply to multiple targets. They are capable of hitting like a pikeman at times, but not without significant penalty in delay and HAM cost. And of all the melees, they are the biggest threat to ranged attackers, since they can outright dodge ranged attacks. They recover quickly from battle, and their meditative buffs give them the ability to string several one-on-one encounters together, unlike fencers. Their AE abilities also give them some flexibility in multiple adversary situations.
Heavy Swordsmen are total offense. Their low HAM costs allow them to wear heavy armor with relatively no penalty. Their counter attacks and AE attacks mean they are just as powerful vs multiple attackers as they are one-on-one. This makes them best suited for rushing into large groups of enemies, more so than for one on one dueling. Also, because of their high damage per hit, and their tendancy to wear heavy armor, they are a significant threat to ranged attackers.
Pikemen are the ultimate defensive class. While not as defensive one-on-one as, say, a fencer, their heavy armor gives them a serious defensive advantage in PvE. Also, between their blocking and their armor, they form living defensive walls of damage absorbtion against ranged attackers. Because of their armor and high block rate, they are good vs multiple attackers, unlike fencers who must focus their defensive energies mostly on their target. And while their DPS is the lowest of all melees, their hits are hard enough that they cannot be ignored, and multiple pikemen working together are a very serious threat both offensively and defensively. If they add the two "unique" pikeman skills as outlined above, this would further define this trait of pikemen as being formation oriented soldiers and not lone duelists like fencers.
Also, if it were to go in like this, it would probably require a redo of the experience system (which should happen anyway, as it's currently applying unintended changes to the difficulty of combat professions). Experience should not be based solely on damage done, but on the total contribution to the fight. Damage taken orprevented should factor into it as well, giving defensive minded professions the ability to keep up exp wise with offensive minded professions as long as those defensive professions are doing their jobs. This shouldn't count as a bonus, but rather should factor into the division of experience. Also, damage should be calculated by the total damage done, not the damage done to a specific pool. If I, as a swordsman, am grouped with 3 pistoleers, and I do 8000 mind damage to a mob with 12k HAM bars, but the 3 pistoleers do a combined 10k Health damage using body shots, I should get more experience than them, because I did 8000 of the 20000 damage done, and they only did 4,000 each. That's different than now, where I get next to no experience because I did next to no health damage and it was health damage that killed the target.
Iwant to add something about DPS.
My feeling is that Swordsman (and Pikeman too) should always outdamage a TK artist. Common sense suggests that the professions with lower toughness, lower utility,lower defenses, not to mention sharp weapons wielded with bothhands, should havesuperior offensive power -in all situations!
This is a problem at present, becauseI have run the numbers, factored in armor piercing / KD / bleeds, and seen that a pure Swordsman has no chance to outdamage a TK artist (unlessvs. medium armor or higher, and that's a limitation they havebecauseofperks in other areas).
Simply put, we do not have the damage advantagewe should have.
My calculationssuggestthat our DPS needs to be increased 50% just to equal the damage output of a TKM, and it shouldactually be doubled, if it is to beclearly superior offensive power.
I would also like to add that I suspect whoever came up with the +speed modifiersfor all the professions really didn't know whatthey were doing.
What other explanation is there for the fact that TK gets +115 speed, when anythingbeyond about +93(depends on the weapon and special) has no effect whatsoever because of the 1 second attack speed limit!
Anomalies like this are a dead giveawaythatthe +speed modifiers for allprofessions, and by extension the DPS of all professions, are seriously out of whack and need fixing.
Assuming they can get things straightened out, either we will be doing a lot more DPS or TK will be doing a lot less. Nothing else makes sense.
Azmodean wrote:
I agree that swordsmen and pikemen should have more *potential* damage output, but I think TKA's and fencers should still win in real damage output due to accuracy difference. In other words... if we land all our hits and they land all our hits, we should be doing a lot more damage than them. But we don't land all our hits and they don't land all of theirs... they just land enough more to slightly overtake us in total damage. Why? Because we have a significant advantage in our frontloaded damage ability. All the DPS in the world doesn't mean anything when the other guy can kill you in one hit.
I'll have to disagree with you, in a polite and reasoned way, of course
I simply think that if damage dealing is a primary definingcharacteristic of our profession (as many have expressed so far), then we should be wrecking some serious shop -not just on paper,not just a little bit more than the other guy,but enough to set us apart from others, and enough to compensate us for our weaknesses.
Both TK and Fencer have advantages that are both real and working: speed, accuracy, melee defense.Why should our strength be in theory only?
I'll also have to downplay the benefitthatfrontloaded damage represents. Here's why:
One shotting people does not make for fun or interesting gameplay. That's why the 1/4 pvp damage reduction went in, and if one shotting is still a problem, you better believe it will be reduced even more. Additionally, the endgame is all about buffed combatants, so nobody is going to be one shotting anyone else, unless maybe they have a stupid stat setup.
Also, I think we've seen from the latest creature changes that nobody is going to be one shotting anything worthwhile in pve, either.
Thus, front loadeddamage, if it hasn't already, will takea back seat to DPS, and is not a valid reason for us to be inferior in damage outputcompared to other professions.
Swordsman should be heavy damage dealers, with fairly stong defensive mods. Couterattack shouldnt be the main mod that we get for defense. Some kind of dodge or block would be more applicable, as well there should bea ranged branch that better suits swordsman (ie fencer and pistoleer), because carbineer really sucks and the only thing its got is the counter.
Our weapons need to be updated as well, hte Power Hammer is terrible unless you master the tech tree. As well, where the hell is the scythe, its in there, but not in the game (I saw an FS that was using one).
Long live swordsmen.
i don't necessarilly think that pikeman are slower than swordsman. in fact the difference between the two professions historically are that:
a pikeman is used for thrusting (piercing armor) and moderately damaging hitting blows while being able to defend from a distance they are farely quick since they are dealing with a weapon that may be perfectly balanced (depending on the attack).
fencers are also thrusters (light armor piercing) meant for more precise and mobile combat and are faster because a thrusting sword is very light due to the fact it must be straight and sharp. they defend well only because they are able to move much faster with their weapon and therefore avoid getting hit more often.
a swordsman can vary greatly depending on style and weapon of choice. western sword fighting is more a smashing (smashing) into submission and then a dealing of a death blow (piercing or decapitating) to the vulnerability he opens with the smashing. eastern styles are more precise (slashing) his opponent and bleeding him to death by removing extremities i.e., the head. a swordsman would have two basic fundamental abilities; head and neck strikes and bleeds would benefit him greatly and therefore be used most by him for dealing death. also the swordsman would use dizzying attacks and kd's to open up his opponents' defenses in the meantime. that is the way a swordsman fights. combat with him is a true test of one's endurance.
Aemon Goku, Samurai, rifleman, scout