Swordsman Archive
Thread: Swordsman > TKA
xol11: which is what i meant since i used it like that in my other posts also.
I have been seeing posts that this is finally (ie the big patch fixed/changed it)workingagainst enemies who are vulnerable to your damage typeon the rifleman board too which is nice.
Melisma wrote:
Finally, with buffed focus and willpower, bleeds also lose much of their effectiveness as regeneration is through the roof.
Power Boost does not buff secondaries. Just health, action, and mind.
If you're meaning Muon Gold or enhances,those are notvalid comparisons as both parties have those options.
Beyond that, both of you are using very speculated numbers, I really don't see any conclusive data to prove either point. Though I am of the strong opinion from my own experiences that the swordsman class has a far higher DPS than the TKA (and I'm not even talking about combining bleeds with normal attacks). The counter being TKA has much better defense.
-Shi
Xol11 said:
TKA's 2000 damage is reduced by 75% from PvP to 500 damage, then it's reduced by toughness to 250 damage, then it's reduced to by composite armor to 125, then by shield generator to 107. So the TKA is doing 106.25 damage per second.
Melisma said:
This is not true. VKs have light armor piercing, and since all player armor is light, the shield generator is applied to the 250 damage, not the 125 damage that factored in the wrong armor piercing for the VK. This would mean that the VKs actually do 214 DPS, significantly higher than the swordsman's using your DPS.
The 1.25 modifier for having light armor vs a medium damage weapon is only applied once, but the resistance bonus from both is cumulative. So If your composite has +50% and shield gen has +15% and they are both AR:1 you get:
<damage>*1.25*0.5*0.85
So: 250*1.25*0.5*0.85 = 106.25
Melisma said:
4000 * .25 = 1000 * .3 = 300 * .75 = 225 * .856 (taken from your calculations of the PSG's effectiveness) = 192.6 * 1.25 (Because Medium AP > light AR by 1) = 240.75.
Again, you do not recieve resistance bonus from armor if you have an AP that is higher than the armor's AR. If you hit with AP:2, player armor has no effect on your damage. I have not tested this since the patch last night, but this was the case up until then. Everyone that says this is not true says that it has never been this way, but I have taken hundreds of datapoints both in PvP and PvM to test this and this has been the case. so it's 300 damage * 1.25 giving you 375 damage, way over TKA.
Melisma said:
A TKM can buff himself over a swordsman by quite a sizeable amount. It can be in the thousands if I'm not mistaken.
As Master TKA I can tell you for certain (just used it a few minutes ago) that power boost only gives you about +400 health, action and mana (I think it's 475 health, 450 action and 425 mind or something).
-Micah
macross_sdf1 wrote:
only your highest SEA will work atm, having 4 +25s will only get you +25, not +100, even though it says that in yoru window.
Just doing a brief test, I equiped 3 +polearm speed skill enhanced cloths(had them around from a long time ago when I was master pikeman). They had +4, +2, and +1 polearm speed. I equiped all 3 pieces of clothing and my skill window showed that I now had +5 / +12 polearm speed (+5 from novice brawler).
I have not tested to see if my spped was actually increased by 7 or not yet, nor have I tested to see what happens if I put two +1 skill enhancers into a single piece of clothing. I will try and find someone to test the polearm speed on tonight and report back my findings.
Macross: Perhaps you are thinking of BE clothing? I have heard numerous rumors that BE tissues do not stack on cloths.
-Micah
Some other things, 2h can dizzy and posture change as well, using area attack3. With luck you'll land them at the same time. Only advantage is the tka can chose to dizzy first then try for a knock down, where as the swordsman has to hope for dizzy landing in the first shot.
secondly powerhammer does more than 2000 a hit, more like a 3k avg, using a damage sliced one.
2h also gets +110 to hit at master, and you can get hammers experimented down to -19 to hit, without sacrifcing any damage or speed or whatever. So missing doesn't happen often.
Mind bleeds with a 600 damge hammer can hit for 1200 or so in pvp for mind2, mind 1 does 800 or so. If you are master brawler and knock down you can do like 1800 for a mind2.
But it's true only the highest single SEA mod you have takes effect. Tested with medic, weapon exp, artisan exp. Max speed for master 2h is +75, +80 at master. With a Speed SEA you can hit every sec, else your capped around 2.0 speed. Tka is alwasy 1.0 without sea. UA damage SEA do not work. Don't know about 2h damge ones, only ones I have are on armor peices which dont work yet.
But without buffs the tka will probably win. Powerhammer ham is really high and you'll end up kiling yourself if the fight lasts too long. Only weakness is a 2h can't knock down unless he takes master brawler.
Xol11 wrote:
macross_sdf1 wrote:
only your highest SEA will work atm, having 4 +25s will only get you +25, not +100, even though it says that in yoru window.
Just doing a brief test, I equiped 3 +polearm speed skill enhanced cloths(had them around from a long time ago when I was master pikeman). They had +4, +2, and +1 polearm speed. I equiped all 3 pieces of clothing and my skill window showed that I now had +5 / +12 polearm speed (+5 from novice brawler).
I have not tested to see if my spped was actually increased by 7 or not yet, nor have I tested to see what happens if I put two +1 skill enhancers into a single piece of clothing. I will try and find someone to test the polearm speed on tonight and report back my findings.
Macross: Perhaps you are thinking of BE clothing? I have heard numerous rumors that BE tissues do not stack on cloths.
-Micah
No, I killed 100+ jedi back in the day when these dropped, so I have quite the collection of +25 sea. Unfortunately the few speed SEA you have are so low you can't really tell if it's even working. I myself use a +19 2h speed, and I know for sure it works as I can hit every second now. Previously, putting 2 of the same onto one clothing, the higher one would remain. Unless It's fixed I will assume it's still the case. But since you have spare +1's to test then please test this out.
The skill window WILL report the total mods, ie your +5/+12, but that doesn't mean a thing. It shows my friend and his +75 UA damage SEA as +185/+260, but he doesn't hit for a ton more. We tried it with just one +25 mod, and damage didnt go up. The med use on the BE tissue doenst work as well. The devs can enable and disable which skill mods are allowed to be affected.
The easy way to see if multiples stack, is with experimentation points. Those provide concrete evidence since you gain an extra pt for every 10 you get. If you have 2 cloths with +9 and +3, you will not get any extra points if I am correct. If you have +10 and +2 then you will. Currently I have +25, +10, +5 for 140 total, but I only get 12 pts. This is because my +25 is the only one working, thus im actualy at +125 or 12 pts. You can argue that its capped at 12 pts, but I have 14 artisan exp pts, from +115 (human) and +25 sea.
But since your sea are 1, 2, 4 speed, I highly doubt you can tell the diff between them. If you had a +20 and a +25 then you coul easily tell, as you would be swinging a hell of a lot faster.
Another way to test is with 2 terrain negotiation ones. Using 2 +25s and having no scouting, if you wear 2 you will run up as fast as a master scout. But you likely will only run as fast as someone with explore 1.
Well, I don't know about any others. But I can confirm that the speed enhancers stack with multiple pieces of clothing (I have not tried applying 2 SEAs to a single piece of clothing yet). Having low modifiers just means you have to take more datapoints. I will show my data for the sceptics out there.
These tests were done with a 5.9 speed lance.
The format is as follows:
What enhancers are equiped
The theoretical attack speed calculated using the attack speed of the weapon and the modified attack skill.
Time spent attacking (starttime - stop time = total time = total time in seconds)
Number of attacks during the timeperiod
Actual attack speed calculated based on time / hits
No Enhancers (+5)
Theory: 5.605
50:29 - 54:48 = 4:19 = 259
45
Actual: 5.75
All Enhancers (+12)
Theory (+12): 5.192 (assuming that all the mods add up)
Theory (+9): 5.369 (assuming that only the highest level mod takes effect)
56:37 - 01:22 = 285
55
Actual: 5.18
One Enhancer (+9)
Theory: 5.369
03:02 - 07:37 = 4:35 = 275
51
Actual: 5.3921
As you can see, although the change is irrelivant in terms of gameplay, the data falls within a reasonable margin of error.
I heard that medicine use was completely removed from BE tissues, it is now just Injury/Wound treatment.
Okay, I spent some time and tested armor again post patch and came to the same conclusion as I did before. I did learn a couple new things (vulnerabilities and special protections) but overally, I still hold my ground that Swordsman is superior. Especially after having actually fought one and knowing that +speed skill enhancers do in fact work.
I recommend that everyone read this because I wrote it and because it proves my point... aside from those though, I do think that it is usefull knowledge which is why I wrote it up for everyone to see.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=game_guides&message.id=70506
Xol11: You weren't dancer buffed. You most likely could have meditated the bleeds away if you were dancer buffs (assuming you are a tkm).
Do you really think it is fair that a swordsman will only be equal to a tka if the swordsman has allof these top of the line items (Good luck getting these after that patch a while back that broke looting. I still rarely get loot when grouped with a pet)? The tka also gets the meditate line when no other melee profession gets any special non combat abilities.
tka are the only viable melee tanks, which is sad, they can meditate, buff themselves, have better specials, and higher dps than any other melee, hands down.
i played as my friend cannibal who is a tkm, and my god the easiness. i could not beieve the difference, i thought we had it bad, but no, its worse. it didnt matter that i didnt have any area attacks, just kd/dizzied everything and killed them in a matter of seconds. if i had to give a rating of hardness to these two professions, it would go like this: master swordsman-9 outta 10 (ten outta ten being the pikeman), tkm-4 outta 10 (1 being ch, or commando i cant decide)
so it is extremely obvious that more work needs to be put into the rest of melee, ecspecially pikeman, for the time being.
I just fought a swordsman today with my TKA.
I fought him 3 times, each time he won. I was not "trying" to lose to prove my point, I actually was hoping I would win so I could see where the flaw in my plan is because I will be creating a swordsman soon.
Before the fight I did a power boost. I also ate 2 Ryshcate's so I didn't use so much HAM doing specials. The swordsman (who was doctor as well) had some health and action buffs on but no mental buffs. My mind was around 1100 after buffs and my HAM cost stats were around 1200. Neither of us had armor on except for his helmet (composite or ubese, not sure which).
I started out with a KD of course and he started out with a bleed. The bleed hit for 900 damage and he resisted my KD and dizzy (now I have do wait 30 seconds to try again). He then followed with a series of normal mind shots. (He later told me that he had one power hamer sliced for damage and one for speed, the damage one he used on bleeds and the other on mind hits). His mind shots were hitting me for 200-300 damage each but were slow because he was still at +75 speed. My hits were doing 130 damage but hitting 2-3 for each of his. I was doing head hits the entire time and using vibro knuckles.
Everything appeared to be going in my favor until the 20 second mark when his mind bleed landed and hit me for 900 damage. Although I was still alive, I was in bad shape. However, a short number of hits later I died from mind damage. When I died I had him down to about 50% mind.
So, I fought him again, this time I went UAH3 the entire time (after an attempted and failed KD). I managed to survive until the second bleed, but I was unable to do enough damage to eat through his health buff before then. Even if he were unbuffed I do not think I would have killed him, though it would have been very close.
The third battle was the same, I tried VKs on helmet again, ignoring the KD this time so I could get in precious extra attacks. But the same thing happened.
Now, there are a few things I should mention about this fight.
1) He only used 1 mind bleed. He was unaware that mind bleeds stacked so he just used his most powerfull one.
2) He did not have any mind buffs on, spice, food, dancer, musician, etc.
3) Neither of us used intimidate or warcry, the battle would have been longer if we had used intimidate but it would have gone in his favor as the bleeds would have more time to take effect.
4) He did not have +100 speed, he was just at master level +75 speed.
Also, for those of you that think TKA can meditate off bleeds. He did 2 bleeds (stacked) to me for 400 bleed damage (very low, his others were doing 900) after we were done fighting (I was full health) and then stopped attacking. I immediately meditated. However, I still died of mind damage before I could meditate off the bleeds. I was not dancer buffed, just power boosted, but they were also low damage bleeds.
I could have worn a helmet, but it was the bleeds that killed me and it would only have given me 25% resist to his normal attacks compared to no wearing no helmet. And it would have greatly increased the amount of HAM I used in my attacks.
Also, he was doctor buffed, but as I stated before, I don't think I would have won even considering those. It would have been a much closer fight however.
And there is always the issue fot he skill enhancers. If he were attacking once / second as I was he was doing 2-3 times the damage I was per hit, this is after toughness and before armor. As I have stated in the past both of us wearing armor would not have helped me much. He would have done 25% less damage and I would have done.12.5% less damage.
-Micah