Swordsman Archive
Thread: SWORDSMEN'S ROUND TABLE: In the beginning there was a swordsman...
Good job, Reignhardt way to take what I started and build from it!
Reignhardt wrote:
I disagree with some of these people about us having low defence. We have the second largest melee weapons, in which master swordsman use to block/perry and counterattack. A swordsman knows how to defend against a hit. He is not a one hitter-quitter; i.e. making powerful attacks but not being able to take a hit because of low defense. All of the melee classes are an art unto themselves, with a fencer and a swordsman being the most closely linked. Therefor all the melee classes should have equal defenses at master, thus balanced.
A masterfully placed unarmed attack can be just as deadly as any masterfully placed polearm attack, against a human target. The difference here is the range at which the attack was launched. If anything, polearms should have the longest reach over all the melee classes. Verses large animals and such(mobs), that is where the difference in damage should show; unarmed being the weakest and polearm and swordsman the highest.
Unarmed specializes in the closest form of melee combat, using your opponents energy against him and striking at opportune moments. This is the basis of all melee combat. Melee weapons like swords and polearms are an extension of your own body. Therefor unarmed combat is the root of all the other melee classes. If you do not know your own body, how can you evermasterfully wield an extension of that same body?
Major differences between classes now that it has been established that they all are arts derived from the same concepts:
Unarmed(TKA): the fastest, shortest range, unable to peirce body armor, alot of attacks used to throw the opponent off balance(knockdown, dizzy), mostly bashing damage, at novice levels the lowest potential damage, at novice level the lowest potential defence. Least player vs. mob damage. Special Note: At closest possible range: the best over all offensive and defensive stats(that is where master unarmed fighters are at home).
Fencer: Second fastest, second shortest range,piercing(light armor only)damage mostly, most attacks launched when opponent is recovering from its last swing(dodge, counterattack). Hey don't yell
, ever watched a fencing match? Dodge, counter, repeat, look for opening, strike when it presents itself. Attacks should include bleeding. More potential novice damage than unarmed, less than two-hand Swordsman. More potential novice defence than unarmed, less than two-hand Swordsman. More player vs. mob damage than unarmed.
Swordsman: Third fastest, second longest range under polearms, second heaviest armor piercing damage of the melee classes(most weapons with medium armor piercing though), attacks launched like fencer(dodge, counterattack), good ability to block, mostly slashing damage, head bleeds should also dizzy. Most potential novice damage, secondhighest novice defense. More player vs. mob damage than Fencer.
Pikeman: Could be one of the slowest, but seeing as there are two sides to their weapons I do not know if this should be the case, should depend on the weapon. Longest range. Heaviest armor piercing damage(come on now! Look at the vibro axe or lance. Long reach, plenty of leverage for heavy thrusting attacks! You could stab the end of one of those straight through a rancors head!). Lots of ability to sweep your opponent(knockdown). Very easy to block your opponent. Slashing, bashing or piercing depending on the weapon. Good potential novice damagesecond toswordsman. Best potential novice defence. Highest player vs. mob damage especially for the bladed weapons. Special note for Pikeman: at the closest possible range: lowest defense and offense(getting inside the arc of the weapon is a good strategy for defeating a polearm, the trouble is getting there).
At Master, all melee classes should have an equal number of defensive points! At Master the Polearms and Swordsman should have the highest mob damage!
There! Good and balanced!! Except the range, but come on now its the truth!
Keep doing this guys and we'll have a good format to submit to the Dev's.I'd like us to be the massive damage dealers, behind polearm that is, and in exchange i'd give up some defense. But to counter the defense drop vs. damage we would need the secondary bonuses i.e. defense vs. kd, and dizzy beings how we have the crappiest defense against that atm and the only reason any of us would lose atm to fencer and most definitely TKA.
We shouldn't have to give up too much speed in our weapons, should be right behind the fencers in damage speed. We should be seen as the fast heavy hitting proffesion, but can be chinked in the defense department.
I'd like to see the weapons vamped more in the direction of swordsman though, very ridiculous to have a swordsman main weapon be a hammer. I'd like to see the hammer dropped into the brawler range and have the sythe or cleaver be our main weapon (because they are the only weapons that even look like they are a heavy sword).
I know TH said something about the weapons being rebalanced, but i still think a swordsmans weapon should be a sword and not a tool to pound commandos into the dirt like nails (although i admit it's fun 
)
Hope this helps ya Gorecki
Ok when i think heavy swordsman i think Conan the Barbarian or a fullyarmored samurai. They should do high damage, be slow, and take damage like a graul mauler.
TKA should be light damage (they are unarmed for gods sake!) but be fast and dodge a lot, but take normal damage when hit.
Fencer should be a step above TKA in the damage dept, but should have similar defense bonuses. And slightly tougher than the TKA.
Pikemen should be the middle of the road people. Med damage out put, can take a med amount of damage, and have a med speed.
This I like very much
Ehogack wrote:
Pikeman -> Crowd Control(Carbinier). Lots of area status/posture changes. #3 on DPS, #3 on toughness/defense.
Swordsman -> Heavy Hitter(Rifleman). Huge damage with good piercing. #1 on DPS through armor piercing being fixed not necessarily speed, #4 on toughness/defense.
Fencer -> Defense Specialist(Pistoleer). Awesome status and range/melee defense. #4 on DPS, #1 on toughness/defense.
Teras Kasi -> Little of each(BH). Fast enough to engage in close quarters and dish out hits as well as take them, decent damage with some armor piercing, moderate defenses. #2 on DPS, #2 on toughness/defense.
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Tanmorgulion wrote:
Keep doing this guys and we'll have a good format to submit to the Dev's.
I agree
....thanks for the great feedback so far.
Whatever the role of the swordsman, chefs should be the masters of hand to hand combat.
MissileToad wrote:This I like very much
Ehogack wrote:Pikeman -> Crowd Control(Carbinier). Lots of area status/posture changes. #3 on DPS, #3 on toughness/defense.
Swordsman -> Heavy Hitter(Rifleman). Huge damage with good piercing. #1 on DPS through armor piercing being fixed not necessarily speed, #4 on toughness/defense.
Fencer -> Defense Specialist(Pistoleer). Awesome status and range/melee defense. #4 on DPS, #1 on toughness/defense.
Teras Kasi -> Little of each(BH). Fast enough to engage in close quarters and dish out hits as well as take them, decent damage with some armor piercing, moderate defenses. #2 on DPS, #2 on toughness/defense.
I agree with this, to a point. Here is what I see should be slightly different...
Swordsman - We should NOT be #4 on toughness/defense. Our toughness should be up there, probably about even with pikemen, but below TKA and above fencers. Our defense should be again be about even to pikemen, maybe slightly less. While TKA should have high defenses against UNARMED, their overall defenses against all else should be below all the other melees because we are using weapons with reach. I would place fencers first on defense because of their speed, and like I said pikemen and us a close second with pikemen edging us out simply because of the slightly longer length of their weapons, with TKA coming in last. Also, TKA shouldnt have any AP unless they are using vibro knucklers, in my opinion.
Keep in mind, however, this is from a RL point of view, so obviously it probably wont be taken that way. I am familiar with all of this types of fighting in RL, due to almost having a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and almost being a second degree black belt in Kickboxing. So, its rather ingrained into my system, so its how I think. But opinions are like womp rats... they are all over the place, but some are worse than others.
Riff Moonraker
Master Ranger/Expert Heavy Swordsman
Im a holo swordsman that loves the profession so take this for what its worth.
Swordsman should be the heaviest hitters to a single target but not much defenses.
Pikeman should hit the hardest against mulible opponents.
Fencers should be very hard to hit with quick attacks but less damage.
TKA should be somwhere inbetween fencer and swordsman. Not great at anything but good at everything. The meditation line is HUGE in the scheme of things. Free heals, free buffs, and poison-disease-bleed cures. They should really be limited in their attacking abilities.
As of now TKA is fencer and swordsman rolled into one profession with free buffs. No question about it they have it good.
SirVimes wrote:
Whatever the role of the swordsman, chefs should be the masters of hand to hand combat.
Lol....how could i forget ?....
My chef carries a two handed sword when out gathering resources so I am speaking as a swordsman player right now, not the chef correspondent.
I used to fence and we would do a lot of melee type tournaments. Especially the five man. And each man on the melee had a certain role. You put your strongest killer in the middle, and have him flanked by two other fighters who are balanced...have both defense and offensive skills. At the ends we put our fastest fighters who we call runners...who usually leave the others and tries to outflank the enemy...run wide and come at them from the sides or from behind.
Also, I have seen medieval recreationists fight as well. When they have a pikeman and a swordsman together, the swords man is defense and the pikeman is offense. The pikeman does most of the killing, and the swordsman is for when somebody gets inside the pikeman's reach.
I think each of the melee classes should have special abilities that can only work when they have their weapons equiped that give them a special place in combat.
Fencers are easy. When they have their weapons equiped, they have abilities that help make them run faster. They also have bonuses to defenses when they are running. Their disadvantages is that they have weaker defenses when standing still and don't do as much damage. This makes them good runners, trying to draw away fire and out flank the enemy.
Pikeman...have special damage that does leaves them exposed to attacks. They are slow, but they hit hard and they have greater range than other melee people. They hit harder than any other melee. They can also give their friends bonus against ranged combat that is in range of the pikeman...which is greater than a swordsman. The arguement being that if the ranged guy gets too close, he has to avoid the pikeman.
Swordsman are defense. They have special abilities that not only give them really good defense, but gives the people they are fighting with really good defense. Maybe they could have attacks that don't do much damage, but gives the enemies penalties for their attacks. And if they aregrouped with somebody within range, those people get bonuses to defense against melee.Plus they have the area attacks that can do damage to multiple enemies.
TK can have their own special abilities for healing themselves, and maybe some cool mystical type attacks. Not quite up to jedi level, but close.
This way, everybody has their role in the game. Fencers are good at flanking, swordsman provide defensive benefits to their comrads against other melee types and hit fast and does medium damage, and pikeman gives bonuses against some melee attacks and hits hard but really slow...and rely on swordsmen to protect them from other melee guys.
Going back to EQ, this would make swordsmen your tanks, polarms your damage dealers, fencers your backstabbers and TKs your "magic" types (although their magic is limited).
Again though, this would have to be secondary abilities...ones that don't affect your weapon speed or attack, but give you other abilities that aid you and your team in combat.