Swordsman Archive

just wondering if i'm the only one who thanks that is screwy.

get back to me

Actually look at the tree. They have more melee defense than swordsman! This was because they used to take a 2.5 x melee damage penalty. It was recently removed and the devs forgot to take the melee defense away.

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LergTHEbutcher wrote:

wow you mustve seen one of those rifleman/fencer stackers that has insane dodge mods. A rifleman alone has 0 melee defense. Your wrong to make this thread, another nerf herder without all the facts.

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Wrong. Fencer / Riflemen have great ranged and melee defense. Riflemen itself has great melee defense. You don't dodge if you're holding a rifle, only if you're holding a one-hand melee weapon. Right now riflemen and all ranged are supposed to be easier to hit by a melee opponent if they're holding a ranged weapon, but due to a game flaw they are actually more difficult to hit.

-- Ypi

wow lerg - if you can find the word nerf or change or something similar in my post i'll give you a holocron.

but gee you can't.

but thanks for trolling the swordsman board.

Depends what else the rifleman has dabbled in.

as Ypiana said, there is a bug for rifleman/ commando / bh LLC : instead of having a malus against mellee attack they now have a bonus.

wow you mustve seen one of those rifleman/fencer stackers that has insane dodge mods. A rifleman alone has 0 melee defense. Your wrong to make this thread, another nerf herder without all the facts.

master swordsman with master brawler

melee defense 25

ranged defense 20

yah a rifleman should have +40 melee defense when they can hit from 60m away

that makes a lot of sense.

sorry lerg - it's a mistake that will be fixed eventually because it's so illogical.

previously a rifleman had a 2.5x modifer and when a critter was up close, theyde hit just as much or less then a novice pikeman would. that means a rifleman had to kill a critter from a distance..(wich would result in misses even with /aim allot of times). That melee defence helps early rifleman to run away and get at least a couple of hits off (like warningshot or whatever) to make it to safety. Melee defenceIts pretty high..I was amazed....but the path to master was Pure Hell (sometimes feels like a ranged pikeman)

bug or not....I dunno...we'll see how the combat changes come to effect later

melee defense 25

holy cow, that sucks. I feel for fencers now i truly do. Howver the title of the post was "rifleman tank better than most brawlers". Ill have to ask my blademaster buddy if hes got tka in there too cuz because, Im not lying here to make myself sound cool or something, I go incap in 1-2 hits while he stands there hacking away.

Ok now reading those stats I doubt hes just a fencer, and I admit rifleman melee defense seems like a throwback to the 2.5 melee modifyer. Im sorry for trying to use logic in this game and this forum, but I dont apologize for taking part in this thread, the original poster is blatantly calling for a nerf which I hate, (address your own class problems without trying to weaken the others), and ive learned that maybe I dont want to take up the sword even if it does look sweet. Ok im done and those one-stars are great I collect em.

ok enough speculation heres the facts:

Master Sharpshooter (no dabbling)

block +80 (wow that is pretty **edit** high )

Dodge +10 (wow thats pretty low)

Melee Defense +40 (higher than I thought but I seriously doubt this is higher than a fencers')

Ranged Defense +74 (yah pretty good)

ok someone post the stats of a fencer so we can see the melee defense of a fencer, which is the subject of this thread, that a rifleman can tank better than a fencer, which I dont beleive for a second. Why dont I beleive it? Because my fencer bud and me go to the Nightsisters all the time, both buffed and with full armor. I go down incap in 1-2 hits while he stands there whacking away. Sorry if I seemed pissed in my first post but Im sick of seeing nerf herding on myclass. And Im not trolling these boards, Im considering dropping CH for fencer and was seeing what was up with y'all when i cam across this jem. Thanks

On what do you base your evaluation? Are you merely looking at numbers, or are you looking at actual experience? You can get numbers to say anything if you only choose to look at the ones that support your concerns. For instance, someone mentioned +40 to block. Yes, Rifleman gets block, just like Carbineers get Counterattack, and Pistoleers getDodge, and a+40 to blockmay sound impressive, but block is not working for Riflemen; so it is meaningless. Yes, they took away the 2.5x melee damage modifier, but they have made it easier for melee professions to hit ranged professions (obviously when within melee range), and Rifleman gets no melee damage mitigation.Riflemen can tell you from experience that they are at extreme disadvantages against melee when within melee range. One of those penalties is accuracy. At melee range, rifles suck at accuracy, but melee gets to-hit bonuses against them now at melee range. So at the range Rifles suck the worst at accuracy, meleers are getting bonuses to hit against them. So it is unwise to look at a single number, or even a couple, and jump to conclusions. What matters is how it works in the "real" world.

In the real world, no pure rifleman will tank when unbuffed. It is suicide. I can tell you from experience. I have been killed by things that do not even dent a meleer. Granted the lifting of the 2.5x melee modifier has greately improved the Riflman's chance to survive, but you will never see a Rifleman suggesting to a new player that they try to be the tank fora group. A pure, unbuffed rifleman will go down faster than any other combat profession when engaged in melee combat, all else being equal. That is simply the way it works. If it were not the case, I would not have given up almost all my Scout (the first profession I mastered) and what Ranger I had (loved /areatrack), in order to pickup Swordsman for the melee defenses. If I could tank better than most brawlers, it would have been a waste of points.

Then, again, it also matters what skill levels are you talking. Are you suggesting that a Master Rifleman with a T21 should not own a Novice brawler with a dagger or some other starter weapon? Come on. Even a Novice TK, Fencer, Swordsman, or Pikeman should be concerned about going up against a Master of an Elite profession. Yes, they should survive longer than Novice Brawler, but considering they only have 5 more boxes than the Novice brawler, they should still get owned most of the time against an Elite Master. But Master to Master, Master elite brawlers should win most times when starting in melee range, and master elite ranged professions should win most of the time when starting from beyond melee range. And tha is the way it usually works.

If, in your experience, you think you are seeing Riflemen out tank Brawlersrelax. A buffedriflemancan and should out tank a non-buffed brawler. But then, anyone who is buffed should have an easier time than someonewho is unbuffed. And theremay beother things going on, such as stacked defenses from other professions, in which case you are not seeing a rifleman tank, but some ungodly mix of professions. And even if it were possible right now for a Rifleman to tank, keep in mind we are only 1/3 of the way through the combat changes. It is unfair to judge how things will be by how they are right now. The devs have told us that things are going to be out of balance. Wait and see. The whole feel will be different when everything is in place.

Sotaudi the problem is that melee fighters are not getting that accuracy boost they are suppose to get. I am a rifleman master/swordsmen master too, and even though I can do impressived damage to ranged targets, against other rifleman while I am in melee I miss a lot. A lot as in half the time due to our poor accuracy weapons, somewhat low accuracy mods, and riflemans high melee defense. I have heard people saying the accuracy bonus melee is suppose to get against ranged is actually being reversed. Don't know if that is true, but it is still hard to hit someone weilding a rifle.