Squad Leader Archive
Thread: I'm really worried about our Role Definition post CU...
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Blackferne
Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:37 am
#1
Last night as I got novice SL I started looking over the various trees more carefully to figure out where to get my first box out of usefulness to the group and I started having a bit of a problem. I didn't know what to do. It used to be that you always went for the box with /formup (leadership 1) first because it was insanely useful. And you go up that line first, followed by Tactics, mobility, then strategy.
- But I started thinking that I haven't seen anybody dizzy or stunned yet at all. And I haven't really seen anybody with a state effect on them except one person bleeding. So /formup doesn't seem so useful if I don't have a state to clear.
- Then I started looking at the melee and ranged defenses and I started wondering will they really do much good? It seems this new level system rewards your defense ability not so much on your skills, but rather what the CL is of who you are grouped with. But maybe rally will be cool.
- The mobility will be as useful as before, so that is fine.
- And the strategy line has personal defenses (which are nice, but I'd rather have more for my group)
On live right now as a MSL I bring a few things to the table +30ranged/melee defense, I clear stun/dizzy with no problem and I can do assorted other minor tricks.
But with the way the CL system seems to be more important than stat mods, I wonder what I am doing out there. Without the group enhancement/guiding role I can provide on live, I feel like SL will just be 'meh' as far as professions go. Yes we have more groups, but I don't feel like as a SL I will make them better than a non SL led group. I don't get xp from doing SL things, just by shooting my pistol.
It is as if the devs aren't sure what to do with us role wise.
If we care about our profession and what WE want it to be, we have to be vocal about these issues.
Help?
Sylow
Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:25 am
#2
The way i see it currently, the modifiers only matter in PvP. For PvE the level is the deciding issue, everything else is just decoration.
Seems like no more SL for me when CU comes up... 
Though, that's something really hard to test, but it's possible:
- lead a group as SL to some tough area. As SL you don't attack or do anything, you just walk along to give modifiers. Tough and boring, but that's the only way to do it.
- after the thing is done, the same team, this time without SL, has to do the same. See if there are significant changes in the rate of success.
Unfortunately i expect no real differences.
[I can't do it myself, i currently got too little time to run something like that. ]
]Message Edited by Sylow on 04-14-2005 05:29 PM
eapers
Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:38 am
#3
I agree entirely. The damage reduction system based on group level seems to be the easy way out for the devs, making it easy for them to reprogram creatures in the new system. No sir, I don't like it.
Heres hoping mods will matter in PvP.
Heres hoping mods will matter in PvP.
MailekEOC
Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:14 pm
#4
Another thing I don't understand is we are supposed to be moderate with crowd control but do we have any type of skill in SL? No....
The whole new level system in the game is really screwing up things for a lot of ppl and now they are making a new weapon cert to balance that , thus killing profession uniqueness. Also the fact that they killed off SL xp which is unacceptable as it really encouraged the SLs to form groups, now anyone with pistols?!? can become a Squad Leader?
The CU was looking good but some of these recent changes and design goals are killing the game for me and a lot of people. I also hear SL skills do the same as before, if this is true then I do not see myself waiting around for an SL revamp, i'll probably just quit cause the game is turning into something that i'm really starting to hate.
Combat music is cool though....
Soda_Jedi
Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:24 am
#5
While the CU is still a few weeks away from its expected release, I do agree that what we're seeing right now in TC is disheartening. Weird particle effects,offputting icons,and weak blaster sounds aside the level system, or at least the damage multiplier that came with it, seems to stifle any idea of the tactics that the devs were shooting for in their CU goals by making the difference in levels a major (if not deciding) factor in the outcome of a battle (and practically negates our defense bonuses btw). Also, unless I miscounted, at master it looks like we get more personal defense mods than group defense mods. I'd rather that our group mods outnumber the personal ones. I really hope that the devs are listening to us, and are considering better alternatives to what we have in TC now. I'm more than in favor of delaying the release of the CU if it means a better quality product.
"The winds of change can flow through every crevace, be it a crack or a canyon, in the soil or in the mind." The same goes with MMOs like SWG as well, and I stand by the hope that the devs will make changes to the cracks in the CU. Though, hopefully with advanced computer knowledge instead of, you know, actual wind and stuff...
Sylow
Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:35 am
#6
I'm more than in favor of delaying the release of the CU if it means a better quality product.
I think this is the mayor problem at the moment. Marketing dictates the timeline, quality control has to step back. To still create a more or less playable system within the limited time, they have to surrender elegant game mechanics and reduce it to a level-system. The fact that SLs again fall victim to this all is just a "side-effect", as we're few in numbers, the Devs ignore us and give in to the whip from marketing.
[Yes, i've read more than once that levels are not new but already in a hidden form existed in SWG. But such an internal level didn't directly influence game mechanics up to now... (For me it seems very weird that a few levels of difference result to the same weapon doing several times the damage. Guess the same NPC uses a bigger gun when firing at targets of lower level... or how do you explain the higher damage?)]
Message Edited by Sylow on 04-15-2005 12:37 PM
Soda_Jedi
Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:46 am
#7
I'm just going with what the developers had said about the combat upgrade when it was announced and that it didn't have a strict timeline to follow through. I agree with you though, and with a proposed May 5th (?) release date, the prospect of pushing the CU back a few more months seems bleak.
_scout_
Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:31 am
#8
Have a look at this:
Interesting post lifted from the Expansion forums
and my interpretation of that here
I dont have the feeling that this is a beta, it doesnt fell like an alpha at all.
It just doesn't feel like that.
For a beta there is still too much going on, in a beta you try to balance and bug fix it, not do major changes and have abilities disappearing and severall prof. not working at all.
They are still doing too much major work in the background for that.
And for an alpha they are to fixed on bringing this out even though it isnt near ready to go live.
*sigh*
I hope so bad that Im wrong ...
EDIT:
added since it belonged more here than in the other thread
I havent been in the JtL beta but dont you think that the closer we get to release day the less is changed and the more is broken in this CU?
E.g.
Noticed how they keept asking us how we did liked the new icons on a daily base?
How do you like the new icons?
What do you like about the new icons?
Was it easy to use the new icons?
Were they easy to use ?
....
And they only showed us one set of icons.
Not three different.
Our opinion never matter in that point.
The new icons, as objectively bad they are design from a practically point of view (too complex, too colorfull, not suitable for a high tec/sci-fi setting, indistinguishable from each other (e.g. placed shot - ranged shot - survey).
They just push it through
and that only in a very nonrelevant topic.
Nothing about the lvl system was officiall announcent.
They just put it in and let the testers find out how it works, they tried to hide it from us.
And where is the daily blog?
*sigh*
I realy hope im just to pessimistic.
.
Interesting post lifted from the Expansion forums
and my interpretation of that here
I dont have the feeling that this is a beta, it doesnt fell like an alpha at all.
It just doesn't feel like that.
For a beta there is still too much going on, in a beta you try to balance and bug fix it, not do major changes and have abilities disappearing and severall prof. not working at all.
They are still doing too much major work in the background for that.
And for an alpha they are to fixed on bringing this out even though it isnt near ready to go live.
*sigh*
I hope so bad that Im wrong ...
EDIT:
added since it belonged more here than in the other thread
Soda_Jedi wrote:I hope that things will change for the better, as things always change. I remember that in the JTL beta, they were making a lot of changes on practically a daily basis. Hopefully, the final product will turn out nice, at least I'm praying that it will be.
I havent been in the JtL beta but dont you think that the closer we get to release day the less is changed and the more is broken in this CU?
E.g.
Noticed how they keept asking us how we did liked the new icons on a daily base?
How do you like the new icons?
What do you like about the new icons?
Was it easy to use the new icons?
Were they easy to use ?
....
And they only showed us one set of icons.
Not three different.
Our opinion never matter in that point.
The new icons, as objectively bad they are design from a practically point of view (too complex, too colorfull, not suitable for a high tec/sci-fi setting, indistinguishable from each other (e.g. placed shot - ranged shot - survey).
They just push it through
and that only in a very nonrelevant topic.
Nothing about the lvl system was officiall announcent.
They just put it in and let the testers find out how it works, they tried to hide it from us.
And where is the daily blog?
*sigh*
I realy hope im just to pessimistic.
.
Message Edited by _scout_ on 04-15-2005 02:45 PM
Fidgiter
Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:56 am
#9
Unless something changes the only thing the SL will truely get from this change is the ability to respec into something useful.
While the combat modifiers are a nice addition we are not the only profession to get them and the other professions that get them have specials and abilities that work. I don't even think they adjusted the HAM expenses of our abilities for the post CURB world and I wouldn't doubt that Rally still fails more than half the time.
Has anyone information about the certification for "our" weapons? At the very least I would hope that a SL who has no other combat qualifies for all of them.
What gives us a 3 rating in crowd control? Does our group support qualify as crowd control? If so that would be a bit... odd.
My hope and dream was that with the CURB groups would be encouraged and the Squad Leader would be a valuable participant in that group. As I see it now I have to wonder: Which would be more valuable to that group, a Squad Leader or someone with another Combat Mastery? Right now I'd have think we'd weaken the group rather than strengthen.
Novock
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:17 am
#10
1. They need to fix our specials and make the more viable
a. fromup --> lessen the action mind cost
b. rally ---> make it do something
c. steady aim ---> let it work on a 30 sec modifier rather than a shot modifier (give it a long cool down so it cannot be spammed continually)
d. volley fire -----> make it fir 3 shots at the target rather than 1 (this would allow the SL to help bail out a squad emmber in danger)
2. Give us some new stuff:
a. Cover Fire ---> a SL special where a SL can lay out cover fire temporarirly removing his members from overhead map and radar
b. reinforcement drop ---> drops a small contigent of NPC trops to aid the battle (works of a long timer say maybe only useable once an hour)
c. Battle Cry ------> Gives a temporary reduction in armor movement hindrances and a 5 sec pause on any enemy combatants within a 15 meter radius
3. Give us ability to set group waypoints, rally points and retreat points. Let us function as a squad leader
4. Give usa few more general speed points 10 ponits would be good. Add to master box
This is what I believe we are missing. I know we have supposedly a SL revamp coming up but that doesn't mean we should be ignored in the CU.
Fidgiter
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:40 am
#11
Novock wrote:
1. They need to fix our specials and make the more viable
a. fromup --> lessen the action mind cost and make it do something. I note ranged profs don't have the ability to get off the ground. If Formup could help hasten recovery from a knockdown it would be valued. "Stop sleeping on the job, maggots!"
b. rally ---> make it do something other than preventing docs from reviving and people from skinning. In fact those limitations have no cause. It should also have a greater success rate. I've failed 8 times consecutively at Master.
c. steady aim ---> let it work on a 30 sec modifier rather than a shot modifier (give it a long cool down so it cannot be spammed continually) This is good
d. volley fire -----> make it fir 3 shots at the target rather than 1 (this would allow the SL to help bail out a squad emmber in danger) This is good
2. Give us some new stuff:
a. Cover Fire ---> a SL special where a SL can lay out cover fire temporarirly removing his members from overhead map and radar. Target the group member and initiate cover fire. Everyone who has that person targetted looses the target until they can reaquire.
b. reinforcement drop ---> drops a small contigent of NPC trops to aid the battle (works of a long timer say maybe only useable once an hour) Perhaps at master. A little tricky
c. Battle Cry ------> Gives a temporary reduction in armor movement hindrances and a 5 sec pause on any enemy combatants within a 15 meter radius This sounds cool
3. Give us ability to set group waypoints, rally points and retreat points. Let us function as a squad leader
This would be a useful tool.
4. Give usa few more general speed points 10 ponits would be good. Add to master box
Don't see the harm of this.
This is what I believe we are missing. I know we have supposedly a SL revamp coming up but that doesn't mean we should be ignored in the CU.
Novock
Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:49 am
#12
This was just my thoughts others may have better ideas as I'm sure they do but man the devs need to give us something.
Fidgiter wrote:
Novock wrote:
1. They need to fix our specials and make the more viable
a. fromup --> lessen the action mind cost and make it do something. I note ranged profs don't have the ability to get off the ground. If Formup could help hasten recovery from a knockdown it would be valued. "Stop sleeping on the job, maggots!"
b. rally ---> make it do something other than preventing docs from reviving and people from skinning. In fact those limitations have no cause. It should also have a greater success rate. I've failed 8 times consecutively at Master.
c. steady aim ---> let it work on a 30 sec modifier rather than a shot modifier (give it a long cool down so it cannot be spammed continually) This is good
d. volley fire -----> make it fir 3 shots at the target rather than 1 (this would allow the SL to help bail out a squad emmber in danger) This is good Maybe insteadmake it fire for 5 or 10 secs as people speed maybe be different
2. Give us some new stuff:
a. Cover Fire ---> a SL special where a SL can lay out cover fire temporarirly removing his members from overhead map and radar. Target the group member and initiate cover fire. Everyone who has that person targetted looses the target until they can reaquire. hmm thats a slightly different way of working it but I like it either way.
b. reinforcement drop ---> drops a small contigent of NPC trops to aid the battle (works of a long timer say maybe only useable once an hour) Perhaps at master. A little tricky My friend is in Iraq a Squad Leader for the guard. When they get in trouble he can call in air support it seems that calling in reinforcement would be praticle though you're right it maybe tricky. but the mechanic is already in place with the faction scans so maybe it wouldn't be to bad.
c. Battle Cry ------> Gives a temporary reduction in armor movement hindrances and a 5 sec pause on any enemy combatants within a 15 meter radius This sounds cool
3. Give us ability to set group waypoints, rally points and retreat points. Let us function as a squad leader
This would be a useful tool.
4. Give usa few more general speed points 10 ponits would be good. Add to master box
Don't see the harm of this.
This is what I believe we are missing. I know we have supposedly a SL revamp coming up but that doesn't mean we should be ignored in the CU.
Fidgiter
Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:25 pm
#13
In context with the Level system (which I don't like) another thing to consider (if it remains) is having Rally increase the CL for each member of the party for the duration. This would be far more effective in terms of defense than a modifier (for PvE)
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