Squad Leader Archive

I really do think the devs are between a rock and a hard place with the Squad Leader. From what Holo has said recently, it's clear players are over-powered in relation to PvE game. As a 3rd Tier Marksman, there were times that I soloed low reds (2K-3K+). It wasn't really better XP/minute than soloing good yellows, but we aren't supposed to be able to consistently solo yellows either. Right now, as a full 4th Tier Marksman, I can easily solo red Lesser Bocatts (2K-3K), even managing to survive two at a time. Itis also truethat groups that are smaller than the devs intended are able to kill anything, including Krayts. I've heard of as few as six managing to kill a Krayt, and the record may less now.

Granted, some poorish AI is partly responsible for this state of affairs. When /warningshot-ing, MOBs will sometimes get into a state of walking only, and it's easy to stay out the range of most MOBs and kill them off once this happens. Of course, /warningshot by itself is pretty effective against yellows and low-reds. Another AI problem is the 'confusion' a MOB suffers when it is being attacked by more than one player and/or NPC. This is why even Krayts can fall to very small groups. Just sandwich or surround a MOB and it switches back and forth between trying to attack first one and then the other of its attackers. I've been able to do this 'solo' with a Rebel General NPCspawn against squalls, mountain squalls, and Tuskens. The MOB AI probably needs to be modified to quickly pick a primary enemy and concentrate on that one enemy until it is dead or incapped. Finally, there seems to be fairly easy to find situations where you can play one NPC or MOB off of another, and kill reds that way. I have been able to pull3-10K+ squalls, 3-10K+ Tuskens, and Bocattsinto range of friendly Rebel NPC spawns on several occaisions. Or else,attack them after they begin to attack their 'natural enemies'.

So what will happen if the Squad Leader becomes a real force multiplier? A Squad Leader and two others become the first three-person team to take out a Krayt? The PvE game will become even more imbalanced. The only way to improve the game balance is to power-nerf the combat professions accross the board, or boost MOBs and NPCs globally, and/orcreate an expansion pack's worth of more challenging MOBs. None of these are quick, easy-to-do solutions. Balancing players after a super-nerf will be extremely time-consuming, and that solution would be very unpopular with the players. Making MOBs more powerful has it's own balancing issues. Maybe the best solution for SOE's bottom line is muddle through with what we have, fixing the known problems, and come out with new worlds with bigger challenges and new sites on the existing worlds that will challenge the 'over-powered' combat professions.

My main point is don't expect the SL to be made very powerful in terms of passive and active combat buffs and de-buffs. My hope would be that an SL's passive and activebuffs and de-buffswould be made effective enough that a group faced with a choice between a BH or an SL, would always see the SL as a better choice than the BH, just in terms of the benefits to the groups combat effectiveness. Throw in the group organization and communication abilities that I hope will be added someday, and SL's should be a desirable profession.

BTW, what if a /battlecry-type ability had a chance to do an area-effect intimidation?

Also, for those that anguish over whether a proposed ability 'makes sense' in terms of real-life situations, I have a question: when has it ever been possible for a leader to cut or shoot his soldiers so that the other, more seriously wounded soldiers would miraculously get better? I can just see the new Alamo movie now:

Jim Bowie: "Boys, roll up yer sleeves. Captain Travis wants me to give each of you a three inch gash with this here little knifeIcrafted."

Daniel Boone: "Knife?! Little?! Only in Texas would that thing be considered a 'little knife'. How in tarnation is cuttin' us with that thing supposed to do us any good?"

Bowie: "Well, I reckon that Captain Travis will be able to get up off his cot and lead us to victory."

Boone: "Well that's fine and dandy, but this sure ain't goin' to do much for boosting our morale!"

Bowie: "No, sure enough, but I'll get some nice craftin' XP!"

Boone: "BTW, Bowie, what's the HAM costs on that thing?

Bowie: "Hardly none at all! I experimented most of it away."

Boone: "Coo"

Bowie: "Thx"

Drakforge-

Thank you, Drakforge, for pointing this out. Anyone who takes up squad leader and is worth their title should have some kind of naturalleadership skills, and I think they are exhibiting just that in these forums. The sad thing, however,is that while we are coming up with the fixes ourselves, the professions that are getting the attention are the ones that are simply complaining.

I did axe targeted volley fire in the newest update because I didn't like the concept. I'm trying to work something out with pool teams instead.

Gaebo-

Thanks, Gaebo. I try to stay away from the official reports because, well frankly, I don't have the last say in what is sent, what is cut, and how it is worded. Many of these commands may seem rather overpowered on paper, but in many cases I intend a heavy HAM cost to their use, which is something I just can't assign.

Your boost morale strategy is a great idea,but if the only realuse for it is if a player is a squad leader and a teras kasi, then it is still abad skill. Nothing should require you to have two non-prerequisite professions to use. I'm sure that your strategy will help all the SL-TKA combos out there though, at least until we get something better.

Ciaran_Gceilteach-

I don't deny that the devs have gotten themselves into a problem here. I disagree that it is with the squad leader. I will not pick up the slack for their mistakes. I would drop this class first, which would greatly sadden me, because I wanted this more than anything out of this game and I've spend countless hours trying to improve it to no avail. However, with things as they are now, I can replicate the current squad leader abilities just as effectively in any other profession, and be moreefficient at combat. Furthermore, I do not see how that if all the squad leaders drop and switch to advanced combat classes, that this will fix the PvE issue. It won't, it will just make it more obvious. There will just be one extra bounty hunter in every group. Nerfing squad leader is not a long-term solution.

As for PvE, we do need new harder worlds. Myrkr is one I would like to see added. Those could be implemented without complaint. Nerfing anything will make people mad. As for current MOBs, I suggest doing what they did with Tuskens; just make tougher variants while keeping the existing ones. Should not take any new models or anything, just some new code.

I think your hope and expectation are mutually exclusive. Unless we actually provide something to a group, no one will want us.Period.

I did have a /warcry that did just that, but I nerfed it because I didnot think it fit in with my squad leader concept. The squad leader should improve the group and notharm enemies in my opinion. I cannot explain /boostmorale. I just tried to keep the existing abilities with only minor changesso that this could be potentially implemented with less new code.

Add:

Squad Leaders should get some if not all bonuses whether grouped or not. Generally how do soldier's become squad leaders in the first place, because they are the best of the best!!

Brynn/SWROChandler:

I had a nice, intelligent response to your post above. Basically it was a clarification of what I meant.

Unfortunately it got swallowed by the board monster. I'll try to get it re-submitted sometime.

JuCat-

Indeed we should be the best of the best, but not individually. We are good soldiers because we can take a group of people and make them into something more than the sum oftheir parts; we can makethem into a single, autonomous unit. I think bounty hunters should be the most powerful one on one, but more than that should get some kind of flanking bonus, just how we can't use any of our abilities solo. Anyways, that's what I've always thought about BH, I don't mind knockdown spamas long as they are at a noticeable disadvantageagainst multiple targets. Just look at Luke and Fett in ROTJ if you need proof. But, yeah, squad leaders can't have it both ways, it would just get ridiculous.

Ciaran_Gceilteach-

Ha, I'm sorry. These boards suck, don't they? I very much prefer Invisions.

gordon_wood-

Have you tried it with a team of 20 at Fort Tusken? The system messages get lost with the XP, faction, looting, and whatever other messages happen to come up besides those with every kill. Granted, we can now put them in color, but they still don't stand out enough.

I was thinking about what the best ability, command, or aspect of squad leader currently is, and I think I've come to a conclusion. It'sthe title. Simply by having those three words below my name makes more of a difference than anything I can physically do. People come to me for orders, I get priority medical treatment, and I am simply respected by the group, regardless of my abilities and commands I bring to them.

I, for one, think squad leaders should get the privilege of earning this distinction, and we are not going to do that with the current implementation or the proposed.We need something different; we need to be the "soldier whose very presence in a group provides benefits to all group members."

To have any hope of this ever happening, we need people first and foremost. That means if you see a fellow squad leader on your server, give them a /tell and ask if they check the boards. If they do, great, but if not, have them come here and speak out. The more people we have yelling at the same time, the less easy it is for Sony to cover their ears and block it out.

We have done a good job so far. Our post rate is increasing daily, and we have gotten Sony to recognize that we might actually have a problem. Now we just need them to figure out the true nature of the problem. So please, everyone, go out and post for the future of our class.

Among the good criticism so far, I have to add that we cannot turn a Squad Leader into a medic by allowing him to end incapacitation instantly or the like, he shouldn't even be able to heal wounds...but he should get the Drag Command sometime early in his career.

Squad Leaders aren't medics unless they get the Medic class.

Brayden SygTek

Join the Empire they said!! See the world they said!! After a year...not even a t-shirt...at least I can paint my xwing

Rebel Master Squad Leader - We Do It In Groups

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SWROChandler wrote:

I was thinking about what the best ability, command, or aspect of squad leader currently is, and I think I've come to a conclusion. It'sthe title. Simply by having those three words below my name makes more of a difference than anything I can physically do. People come to me for orders, I get priority medical treatment, and I am simply respected by the group, regardless of my abilities and commands I bring to them.

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I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, I didn't even bother with any SL skills for the first few weeks in order to make myself a better combatant. It wasn't until I wsa in jeapardy of losing a lot of points that I went for some mobility. All of the power in SL is founded in your reputation and your title. It's like I'm an Uber-Noob helper. hehe. But I like helping and organizing and answering questions. It's why I went for the skill to begin with.

You get the title but have to earn the name.

Great ideas for the skill BTW. It's nice to see this thread ressurected.

Occamz

Does anyone else think at MSL we should get a skill or schematic? Would be cool to get a schematic thats called 'Fragmentation Grenade' or 'Improvised Smoke Grenade' or just plain 'Smoke grenade'.

The grenade or whatever would obscure the los of both sides including pets which would allow for an organized retreat.

Just a thought.

SygTekInc-

I agree. I don't want squad leaders to be medics or doctors, which is why I don't have any active healing abilities. Morale boosts the mind, but does not actually heal it for them, and Inspire is meant to be what our Retreat should be. It will incur a heavy HAM cost, if not incapacitation, and is only meant to be used when the medical team itself isdown. I don't believe this detracts from, or is a substitute for, the medic classes.

Skunkjuice-

I have stopped advancing as well and am currently just hoarding experience. But you make some good points...we are uber noob helpers. Thanks for the support; the above was my version of bumping (except I do not like just posting "bump" and try to avoid it). But I'm keeping this around until it's implemented . Or at least something is.

Amexsos-

Possibly. I'm not sure. Typically masters get just a better version of an old skill... but I don't think we should get any schematics. And weaponsmiths already have fragmentation grenade schematics; they're justcalled C12s and C22s (used to be "Fragmentation Ion Grenade"). I doubt smoke would help with radar and tab targeting though.

Fellowsquad leaders, I am writing this to tell you that I am dropping the class. I can wait no longer with false hopes and neglect. With no concrete reason to tie up my skill points, I am sadlymoving on to other things.

I wanted nothing more than to be a squad leader. It is the reason I chose human, stockpiled skill attachments,and made so many other decisions that ultimately shaped my character; so that I could not only master squad leader, but be the best on Flurry. Unfortunately, I never got this opportunity. Little did I know that I was doomed from the beginning to dysfunctional commands, nonexistent skill mods, and sheer uselessness in general.

But I was not deterred even after learning this. I went about to completely reshape the skill tree into something that deserved the name "squad leader." I feel I have accomplished this, and I believe many of your posts reaffirm this. Your support and commentaryhave beenmost appreciated, but there is little more I can do. I have laid out my ideas, butI cannot make the devs listen.

To those of you who are holding out, I wish you the best of luck. I hope to see the day that people are begging to be lead by a squad leader, but at this point, I am doubtful it will ever come. Perhaps the best thing we can do for theprofession is to leave it, in one final, desperate plea for help. Whatever decision you make, I salute you all; this community has been the most professional and pragmatic I have seen. Squadron leader Brynn Alastayr out.