Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leadership: Support role or Combat role?
None of the Squad Leader skills, bonuses, or specials allow the Squad Leader himself to be more effective in combat. They all support the group first, and the Squad Leader secondarily.
They are not "selfish' skills that only benefit himself, they are "selfless" skills that only (ok ignore soloing for a minute... 
)benefit others.
Regardless of pre-reqs, Squad Leader is a support profession.
There are people who don't play MMOs to be the biggest damage doer, they enjoy playing Support roles. These are your clerics, enchanters, etc. in other games.
SWG lacks combat Support professions greatly. For those who's personalities incline towards playing Support Characters, your options are: Squad Leader, Doctor, Combat Medic, Ranger.
Both medical ones require heavy crafting, which turns off a lot of people. Ranger doesn't affect combat too much, besides Traps, its mainly camps, harvesting, and terrain negotiation.
Which pretty much leaves Squad Leader as one of the few bastions for Support profession players. There are no crowd-control specialty professions, no "bards", no damage-mitigation specialists... why? Because those aren't Star Wars...
So please, before you campaign for changes, remember those who enjoy combat Support professions, and have Squad Leader as their only hope.
Volatris wrote:
None of the Squad Leader skills, bonuses, or specials allow the Squad Leader himself to be more effective in combat.
Not true. /rally the +melee and +ranged defense, + terrain and +burst run all make the squad leader more effective in combat.
Like I posted I would like a balance between support and combat abilities for the class. Since you have to have some form of combat ability to get the class in the first place.
Hummm...so Wu'Jen, I'm afraid I'm a bit confused. I thought you were arguing for SL to be a combat profession too. You argue that SL should have more combat abilities and then you point out that /rally and many of the passive bonuses are already combat abilities. Are you arguing that SLs should be MORE combat oriented? We already have our xp based solely on our combat abilities and with all those combat bonuses (as you describe them) we are largly a combat profession already. What more would you like to see added?
--Ze'ev
Volatris wrote:
None of the Squad Leader skills, bonuses, or specials allow the Squad Leader himself to be more effective in combat. They all support the group first, and the Squad Leader secondarily.
The fact the Squad Leader benefits from his own bonuses is secondary to giving them to the group, a side-effect of the main purpose.
I strongly believe Squad Leader should not be a profession people take to improve their personal defensive modifers. If thats the reason people are becoming an SL, something needs to change.
Its a Combat Support Profession. Its combat related, but doing or taking damage is not first priority, making everyone else more effective is numero uno.
Nochmal wrote:
Hummm...so Wu'Jen, I'm afraid I'm a bit confused. I thought you were arguing for SL to be a combat profession too. You argue that SL should have more combat abilities and then you point out that /rally and many of the passive bonuses are already combat abilities. Are you arguing that SLs should be MORE combat oriented? We already have our xp based solely on our combat abilities and with all those combat bonuses (as you describe them) we are largly a combat profession already. What more would you like to see added?
--Ze'ev
No I'm trying to advocate balance. If we get more support abilities then to balance we should get more combat abilities as well. So long as the class swings to neither total support role or total combat role then I will be happy leading my groups of Teras Kasi.
I'm also for the addition of squad leader xp for using your abilities this would give the support type characters an easier time of getting squad leadership xp while at the same time not punishing the combat types.
Extremes are always bad, there should always be balance.
Posted by DiLune:
So I treat SL as more of a Combat class than a Support class.
And that's your choice and it should always be your choice. However, the way the current exp system is setup, you are *forced* to be a weapons guy in order to get squad leader exp. I maintain it is like basing combat medic experience on how much weapons exp they get.
In the case of squad leader it ought to be based on total group weapons exp. To the extent that the squad leader is able to increase *group* exp (through their own offense or through specific squad leaders skills) they advance as well.
I'm simply advocating that a squad leader should be able to advance playing *either* style - pure support or support and shoot. The problem with the profession as it stands, is that there are not enough *active* things a squad leader can do to support - it's largely passive group bonuses. With more active choices, the squad leader can choose what is most appropriate at any given time to maximize group experience. Do I bash this mob on the head with my brawler skills or do I use one of my squad leader commands to help someone/everyone else? In both cases, the squad leader exp should be equivalent. Right now, the squad leader only gets squad leader exp for not using their squad leader skills (at least when it interferes with shooting). I'm not even really asking for a balance between these two styles, I'm merely asking for choice.
Heh Wu'Jen,
I guess I just wish we had SOME support role. As it stands now, it seems that SL doesn't have much significant to offer that a Master Rifleman/Marksman can't do. With all the different special shots MR/M has, one could argue that an MR can support a group better...at least in some ways.
--Ze'ev
I couldn't agree more Happymob. I like the option of being either, and I often do take both roles. Originally I had intended to be a jack-booted Imperial stomping the flower-sniffing rebels into athin paste, but decided against going faction this time. But the original concept of me as the ultimate combat machine still holds true. In a small group of four people the HAM drain is quite negligent. With the passive defense bonuses, rally and the ability to remove stun from myself (can't /formup when you are dizzy, very annoying) combined with what I'll get for master marksman and master pistoleer, I become a very formidable combat machine. Better yet I lend that to all my comrades, making it harder to hit my docs that are trying to heal me and buff my stats, making me a better combat machine.
But I can see where others would want to do the support role as well. A SL with Medic skills would be great. They can sit back more, do traffic control and direct the battle, heal wounds, etc. The profession is set up very well to blend with other combat or support professions.
Support role. The skills we are given make our groups better in combat, not just ourselves. Our exp should not be based of of combat exp and I hope it changes soon. My simple argument for this is that as I see it now with the exp I gain as a Rifleman/Squad leader compared to say a Tera Kasi/Squad leader. The Tera Kasi gets more exp in a group than a Rifleman and therefore recieves more SL exp. The Tera Kasi has done nothing more for his group than I, yet he is rewarded more because he does more damage. This in no way reflects whata Squad leader does for a group.
Just got to thinking about the requirements for Squad Leader. You have to get Exploration IV - Which requires Scout XP and you can obtain this by (mostly) harvesting hides from kills and a factional amount from /maskscent.
Survival IV - Which is the most grinding of the 3 to do and can be accheived by a purely support person.
Ranged Weapon Support - No way around this one you have to be good with a weapon to get your combat xp.
Then finally to get your Squad Leader Novice box you need to have Combat xp again to get it.
It seems that Squad Leadership should be a more combat oriented class with some support roles thrown in the mix and not primarily a support class, going from the requirements.
Your thought's on this?
I'd like to see SLs get xp for both leading from the front (combat xp based) and leading from the rear (xp from specials and passive bonuses given to the group). In real life the most effective leaders are often the ones who are an example to their troops AND support them well. A SL who lone wolfs it at the expense oftheir group will currently get rewarded for this behavior with xp...an SL who supports their troops should be rewarded for how they help their group.
To me, SL is a support role that sometimes supports by showing the troops how it's done (think of an african safari leader or an experienced NCO in the military). The prerequisites for SL bear this out...you have to be able to camp (support), harvest/camoflage (support that overlaps into an offensive role a bit) and shoot (offensive). I'd like to see that kind of mix, or a similar one, continued in the SL skill tree.
--Ze'ev