Squad Leader Archive

I spoke with our Dev and he, too, was wondering how it slipped in too. Remember: a dev is not the same as a programer (at least not in SOE's case). He also stated he will mention this tommorow to them. I was then asked how this has affected SL XP and I replied:

"Adversely and negatively, to say the least. Not to mention it promotes a sick amount of AFK SL xp. I dunno how this snuck in there."

I think this is the chance to leap all over a swing for a change to SL XP. Please post for me exact formula's, reccomendations, or even that you like the current way the XP is calculated. If you like or dislike someone's post, please let us know because I want to throw a new formula at them ASAP.

Vemnox

I would say.

Combat exp (self) when just grouped with pets

Combat exp ((self and partner) *1.5) when grouped with friend (no pets included)

3 people = Group CE *2

4 people = Group CE *2.5

5 people = Group CE*3

6 people = Group CE*3.25

continue with .25 increments.. something like that

I'm glad you mentioned pets, actually.

In this thread, assume all pets are okay and count as a human group member. We will debate on this again at another time.

Vemnox

Originally posted by Thulium:

Okay, I think we all agree that the new formula for calculating Squad Leader Experience is painfully ill-thought. Especially since the experience requirements for Squad Leader were based on the OLD formulas. Rather than moaning about the new formula, let's discuss the formula we'd LIKE to see... I'll toss out a few ideas:

Original Formula: Workable, but poor because it doesn't account for the success of the group asa whole.

New Formula: Thankfully accounts for group success, but encourages AFK "leadership" because your own contribution to the kill is *reducing* your leadership xp. Also, forumula doesn't include any multipliers so we're working with raw Combat XP, but our skills require xp levels more akin to weapons (ie x10)

The other "support" professions receive experience for using their skills (scouts, medics, entertainers)... Surely they aren't expecting SL's to get xp for using /sysgroup (the ONLY Novice Squad Leader skill), so if we are going to get experience for using our skills, we're gonna need some REAL Novice Squad Leader skills (...what a concept!).

The nature of Squad Leader is (supposedly) a hybrid of a "support" profession(Scout), and a Combat profession (Marksman), so BOTH sides should be taken into account, IMHO. Our own contribution shouldn't be detracting from our experience like the new system does, and neither should the rest of the group's like the old system did.

With all that in mind let's suppose the formula worked as followed: Total group combat XP (Yourself included) x Number of peopleyou are leading= SLXP.

Let's see how this would work out... A kimogila gives 17,517 weapons xp which means 1,752 combat xp. In a group of 20 this would mean:

Under the old system: Minimum, i.e. if you do 0 damage yourself = 0, to a maximum ie. if you do ALL the damage yourself): 1752 x 20 x 2 = 70,080

Under the new system: Minimum ie. if you do ALL the damage = 0, to a maximum ie. if you do NONE of the damage: 1752

Under the proposed system:1752 x19 = 33288

So this system wouldn't allow for the massive "powerlevelling"or punish you for supporting your teamrather than just hording all the xp for yourself like the old system, nor would it punish you for doing damage like the new system. However, like the new system, this DOES leave room for AFK levelling, but that needs to be addressed in almost ALL professions.

Regarding AFK levelling: I would suggest that the devs make it so that you do not receive ANY type of experience if you are AFK. Specifically for Squad Leader experience, you should only get credit for group members within your clip plane (and if they turned off xp for ALL afk'ers you wouldn't get xp from other people just /following you while AFK). Also a mechanism that required that you actually CONTRIBUTED to the fight (by healing, fighting or just using your active SL skills) in order to receive slxp could help this. Granted, all these suggestions are going to be a little tougher to code, but this sort of thing needs to get worked on eventually, REGARDLESS of what formula used to calculate SLXP

Oops, I didn't see this thread and started my own with a treatise on these formulas, but I'll include my proposed simple formula here:

TOTAL groupcombatXPx # of people you are leading (0-19) = SLXP

To prevent AFK levelling, simply do not give ANY xp (of any kind) when AFK, and remove the option to turn off auto-AFK. MANY professions have this problem, not just Squad Leader, so this fix is needed all around.

Having the whole group aiding the Squad Leader in his XP progress is a GREAT idea, I think we all agree with this. The SLs abilities should of course also be taken into account, just as the effort of non Combat Xp gaining group members like Healers of Creature Handlers.

I'll try a few formulas by myself while comparing the XP and post them later.

Okay, lurker on these boards posting for the first time...

I like Thulium's formula, since it is nice and simple and covers a lot of situations.

Medics and other 'non-combat-xp' gaining professions still help by improving the multiplier.

I'm going to break the Cap'n's rules and make some comments about pets:

Because pets are a fairly significant aspect of many groups I've been involved with (either CH pets or faction pets), and because pets count towards the HAM cost of using SL abilities, I do think they should be counted in one aspect or another.

What I don't know is whether the game actually calculates combat xp for pets. However, I for one would be more than happy if they only counted towards the multiplier and any combat XP a pet earns wasn't factored in.

This means that, yes, a SL could go hunting with their pets only and get SL XP. It'd be their own combat xp only * number of pets. Add in one other combat player (without pets), and the SL XP they'd get would double.

I dont like that idea about pets. Ill tell you why.

Some of play at times that not alot of people are on. Also it is not always feasible to put together a group and hunt. Alot of us also have pets. So if I have pets and they do most of the dmg and my other major skill is medic..to heal my pets..that leaves no room for a weapon skill..and if it does it will be minimal at best.. say marksmen 3 or 4 skills. Pets should be counted as memebrs and you should get their exp mod to youx whatever mod you would get for a players combat exp.

Master Ch plus Master Squad leader leaves 23 pts left or something like that.. No way will I be doing much else besides minimally healing my pets and buffing my group with squad leader skills..

My 2 cents..

IMO there is nothing wrong with the current SL exp system.

No group = no exp.

small group = average exp.

big group = watch out!

Worry about something else.

Sorry novamarine , but I don't think you really tried it out yet. When I'm grouping with one other person for example and we kill an even con mob, we're both getting about 100 combat xp. Means I'm getting 100 SL xp for it. That just won't cut it considered the ammounts of XP we have to "harvest" to climb up our profession trees.

What about this possible forumula?

Group Combat XP x2 + Medic XP + CH XP = SL xp

Another possible solution would be to LOWER the skill costs of the SL profession in order to "fit" the current xp system. I also believe that pets should be in the calculation, even though they don't earn any combat xp. Something we will still have to discuss.

Group Combat XP x2 + Medic XP + CH XP = SL xp

Oh thats the best one yet.. I like that..very simple to program I would think.. but Id make it one better

Group Combat XP x2 + Group Medic Xp + Ch Xp= SL xp

No reason to make it ungodly hard to lvl this profession. It's a support profession not a one man killing machine profession. Xp should be fairly easy and steady.

Here's some questions and the way I see it regarding how the SL should earn experience. Please feel free to state your opinion/answers to the questions below. If you disagreewith me just state your views. The fact that your views differ from mine gets the point across just as well as being critical of my opinions on it.

Should a Squad Leader with 5 Pets get the same experience as a Squad Leader with 5 Players? No, the Squad Leader with the 5 Pets should earn some experience but not the same amount as if teamed with other Players.

Should a Squad Leader in a party of 5 Players without any pets earn more or less than a Squad Leader in a party of 5 Players that has 1 pet each? The Squad Leader in a squad of 5 players with pets shouldn't be penalized for the players in the party using the tools at their disposal. The Squad Leader should earn more SL xp for thepet fortifiedgroup but not the same as if it was 10 players.

How could pets factor into the SL xp? Perhaps instead of being based off the Combat XP it should work off the CH XP or a fraction thereof? I can see how calculating the combat experience of the pet may be a problem but there is the calculation of CH xp. Note that if the handler is capped this XP should still apply to the SL xp forumla.

Should a Squad Leader that sits around picking his/her nose while the rest of the group does all the fighting get the same experience as a Squad Leader that is engaged and doing damage in the fight? No, the squad leaders experience shouldn't be based exclusively on their damage output nor should it be deminished if they do have damage output.

Should a Squad Leader take their finger out of their nose from the above example and start using stim packs, should they earn the same experience as the squad leader with the finger up their nose? No, the potential medical experience should factor into the squad leader's experience and the same would apply to other medical noncombatants in the party. It shouldn't be as much as combat experience due to a potential for exploits.

Should a Squad Leader teamed with people capped on Combat Experience earn less experience than a Squad Leader that is teamed with people who are not? No, it shouldn't be based on what was actually awarded. The amount that could have been earned is what should contribute to the experience.

Should a Squad Leader that uses their active abilities earn the same experience as a Squad Leader that doesn't? No, the Squad Leader should get a positive modifier to the total SLxp earnings from a fight based on use of the skills. Something like +1%per usage. The action expenses are nasty and that would limit exploits.

Is the change in principle a bad thing? No, it actually is a good idea poorly implimented. It doesn't seem the type of change one would expect to be undocumented and in a hotpatch. They should revert to the way it was then do a proper evaluation in test.

Thanks, Feliz Gizmacher

As a novice Squad Leader myself and not knowing of the new XP change, I killed two nightsisters and I was grouped with two others and I only received 125 SL XP total. Leveling up to 175k XP with that little amount, this probably makes it one of the hardest professions to level. The Squad Leader profession has minimal combat experience and therefore the way they are calculating XP shouldn't be entirely based on personal damage output.

Now with pets, I do believe they should count as humans when grouped mainly because they play an integral part of groups. It should then be [Personal Combat XP * CH XP = SL XP]

More in the group, the bigger modifier you should get to gain SL XP. For example
You have a maxed group of 20 including yourself (let's say 5 pets are GROUPED). So now it should look something like this: [Personal Combat XP * # of Pets Grouped + Total Combat XP = SL XP]
Something along those lines looks like a good XP system but being a novice SL myself, I have no clue. Just from past grouping, it seems like this could work out.