Squad Leader Archive
Thread: FEEDBACK: The Group Leader Issue
I haven't actually been able tolog in to Test Center all weekend yet - I guess becauseof instability. So, I haven't had a chance to actually test any of this yet. One of the emerging concerns to myself and the regulars of the Squad Leader community seem to center around the removal of the requirement that the Squad Leader also be the group leader. After all, one of our main battle cries for the last two years has been that "Squad Leaders lead squads." It seems like a no-brainer to me.
My initial response,like most of you, is to "demand" that Squad Leaders retain the requirement to be the group leader in order to apply group buffs and additioanlly earn a special type of "Squad Leader" XP for leading the group, even if they are now allowed to apoint or accept assistants who may also now benefit the group or it's individual members. I have read through the arguments on both sides of this debate, but since I have not yet actually sampled the new paradigm for myself -nor have I been advised what the development team's rationale was for this change- let me play Devil's Advocate on the group leader issue. I am not taking a side on this issue yet, and I am still assilmilating your feedback.
I am able to get over the group leader hurdle if I view our role from a different perspective, that of "group enhancer" rather than "group leader." Real world military examples tend to break down at their implementation in an MMORPG, so we must concede to think in terms of abstraction (and anyway if I wanted true-life tactical simiulation I'd be playing Ghost Recon, not SWG). Imagine, abstractly, the scenario where a team is being led into combat by a relatively "green" Lieutenant, but on the team are one or more grizzled and battle-hardened Sergeants.
Now, everybody knows which one isin charge - the officer. But ask yourself, which is more likely to ensure the team survives to complete it's objective and lives to fight another day? Right, the Sergeants. And the more seasoned veterans working in concert, the more effective the team. We might need to stop thinking of ourselves as the Lieutentant and adopt the role of Sergeant. This probably also justifies the removal of "Squad Leader" XP in favor of general combat or weapons experience. I know it's a huge change, but does itreally matter who is administering the group as long as we all know who is getting the job done?
An an abstraction, "unsung hero" is a role that works for me. Thoughts?
Message Edited by Darth_Sushi on 09-04-2005 06:18 PM
Very short and condensed:
- I think that any person who can apply a buff which at the same time has some negative side-effects (with retreat being the most obvious one) can badly affect the performance of the team and get it killed.
- I think that the new buffs, according to all i read on their descriptions in TC and what i heard about them, have to be well linked to the current tactics of the team. If the wrong buff is applied for the set tactics, death ensures.
- I think that if several people in the group can use the SL abilities, this problem will happen very often, that persons evauluate a situation differently or want to use another approach on the situation. Thus there will not only be contradicting words, but contradicting buffs, which can wear down the team quickly.
- I think that the currently reported stacking of abilities of buffs, which is not known if it's a bug or not, leads to serious balancing issues and worry that the profession will be in for a painful nerf in the near future, if this is not controled by mechanics like that only the group leader can issue them.
- Inot only think but knowthat it's frustrating for an SL not to be able to his abilities when not leader. This is the very only reason in my eyes why the "groupleader only" concept is to be discussed at all.
- I think that all of this is my personal oppinion and i sure can be wrong. But i at least hope my position is understandable.
Besides ... if I really want to be the "official" leader in a group, I can always ask for it ...
So, in my opinion the change is great!
!
/poke Darth Sushi
Now referring to lietuenants and sergants, I have a lot of lietenats and sergants like you described around me while I play but they almost never are SQUAD LEADERS (as in profession).
Its me who is having the SQUAD LEADER profession, so its up to me to direct and lead, although I might have a way more expirienced player telling me what to do (like in the DWB, the jabba/rebel corvette, or in large scale PvP) or a very good sergant ( like my DOC/TKM or Pistoller smuggler) who coordinate my group (via groupchat and tells ) while I lead the total assault via /shout, but getting tothe LEADING in the game its me, although I myself have been lead by others BUT IN ALL CASES I was the leader and made the final decision. They teached me how to LEAD while LEADING.
So, again a RL comparison just doesnt suit with the game mechanics. There are ppl more expiriencend in the game, sure
and the natural leaders among them will lead even WITHOUT the squad leader profession.
But we as players from the profession called SQUAD LEADERS should be at least to LEAD the group, although we get our commands sometimes from somebody else.
So I posted my objections already in the in concept thread, as spread all over here. I might condense them into a second post here but let me get some sleep first....
p.s.
anyword of the DEV that made the changes to show up here and explain what his ideas/thoughts/intentions were regarding all these changes ?
_scout_ wrote:
anyword of the DEV that made the changes to show up here and explain what his ideas/thoughts/intentions were regarding all these changes ?
_scout_ wrote:
p.s.
anyword of the DEV that made the changes to show up here and explain what his ideas/thoughts/intentions were regarding all these changes ?
AlienEntity wrote:
I am even considering leaving the forums for a time until the publish comes to pass. I don't want to, but I am tired of the arguing and the flaming. These are my opinions nothing more, nothing less.
/formup;
/rally;
/command Get in behind me and take a breather I can handle the flamings...used to be a commando! We do expect your support at 0500 hours to hold the line though. 
AlienEntity wrote:<
But I have been denied leadership by a Jedi who was only novice, because he was so much better than a non-jedi.
That sort of thing worries me. I am even considering leaving the forums for a time until the publish comes to pass. I don't want to, but I am tired of the arguing and the flaming. These are my opinions nothing more, nothing less.
Me too AlienEntity, I m also so tired of having to repeat myself over and over again in dozens of threads as well as to copy and past my arguemtns all over just because trolls arent able to read.
/sigh
anyway
/boostmorale
/formup
I already gave up on the GCW forum but I wont give up on my chosen profesion.
And regarding that alpha class player, leave the group put him on ignore bann him from your city and guild.
Good night mates
/sal
Group Buff Observastions
- Group Buffs last for 30 Minutes and can be applied by any SL in the group.
- The same type of Buff does not stack, however more then 1 group can be applied, if more then 1 SL is in the group.
- Example - 2 SLs are in the group. SL1 applies a Blaze of Glory Buff. SL2 applies a Tactics Buff. Both buffs will be active.
- If SL2 had also applied a Blaze of Glory Buff, the buff timer would have been overwritten, but the buff bonus will still be 50%.
This means that a 8-man group with 8 SL-dabblers is able to keep up 8 different group-buffs all the time. Now take a look at the described effects:
- Steady Aim - Adds 150 points to Accuracy. This bonus does not show up on the Character Sheet. This information is only listed on the Bufff window.
- Call to Arms - Adds to the groups Armor Effectiveness. Initial testing suggests that the buff adds +1000 to current armor. Non-Armored group members appear to gain approximately 10% damage reduction.
- Tactics - Adds 150 points to Defense. This bonus does not show up on the Character Sheet. This information is only listed on the Bufff window.
- Blaze of Glory - Adds 50% chance to Critical Hit.
- Double Time - Reduces cool down timer on all Macros/Abilites. This does not effect item cool down timers. The reduction appears to be between 10% and 25%.
- Boos Morale - Adds a 10% Action and a 10% Mind regen buff
- Form Up - Adds a 50 points toTerrain Negotiation
- Retreat - Publish note = Significantly enhances group movement speed for a short duration. My Impression = I can run circles around you for approximately 90 seconds. This Buff is a lot more effective then 4xxx Scout Burst Run AND it can be used along with Burst Run, making it so that you can almost keep up with a speeder, with 4xxx Scout. Using this Buff comes with a price. All Action and Mind is drained to0
- Charge- Publish note = Significantly enhances group movement speed for a short duration. My Impression = I can run circles around you for approximately 90 seconds. This Buff is a lot more effective then 4xxx Scout Burst Run AND it can be used along with Burst Run, making it so that you can almost keep up with a speeder, with 4xxx Scout. Using this Buff reduces the defenses of the SL.
This means that a group, if they want it, can have a permanent boost of +150 accuracy, +1000 armour, +150 defence, +50% chance of critical hit +50 terrain negotiation, +10% on action and mind regeneration and shorter cooldown on all abilities. The last SL will, apply charge to the team to keep them burstrunning all the time with the price being decreased defence for himself.
Now please somebody tell me that this is not overpowered and we should not expect to be hit badly by the nerfbat as soon as you see the first teams doing so. I personally think that some people will play this game for a short while and then the buffs will be drastically reduced so each of them only gives a very small advantage. As i don't want that to happen, i again vote to allow only one (or perhaps two) persons to apply the buff to the team or that buffs given by a non-groupleader only has 20% of the effect of a groupleader buff. (Due to detremential effects of some buffs, i would really prefer the groupleader only approach.)
_scout_ wrote:
AlienEntity wrote:<
But I have been denied leadership by a Jedi who was only novice, because he was so much better than a non-jedi.
That sort of thing worries me. I am even considering leaving the forums for a time until the publish comes to pass. I don't want to, but I am tired of the arguing and the flaming. These are my opinions nothing more, nothing less.
Me too AlienEntity, I m also so tired of having to repeat myself over and over again in dozens of threads as well as to copy and past my arguemtns all over just because trolls arent able to read.
/sigh
anyway
/boostmorale
/formup
I already gave up on the GCW forum but I wont give up on my chosen profesion.
And regarding that alpha class player, leave the group put him on ignore bann him from your city and guild.
Good night mates
/sal
(To KJFett3 as well)
Thanks you two. It does mean a lot to know that I am just not a voice in the crowd. I need to make a list for myself of who I respect on these boards, there is only a few.
I may be new to the game relatively and not be as droid like as _scout_ nor am I like _scout's_ programmer Sylow
but I have felt at home here on the SL forum more than anywhere else. And I just want to say thank you to the few I respect here.List done, won't say who's on it, and if I forgot anyone that HAS to be on it, I'll know who you are.
Message Edited by AlienEntity on 09-04-2005 10:28 PM