Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Paradigm Shift
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BadChef
Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:32 pm
#2
Change of abilities and mechanics, welcomed. Change of purpose and role, not soo much. We'l see when it hits live.
AlienEntity
Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:35 pm
#3
BadChef wrote:Change of abilities and mechanics, welcomed. Change of purpose and role, not soo much. We'l see when it hits live.
I think that's where I fit in as well.
LiakyK
Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:51 pm
#4
AlienEntity wrote:
BadChef wrote:
Change of abilities and mechanics, welcomed. Change of purpose and role, not soo much. We'l see when it hits live.
I think that's where I fit in as well.
ditto
jphillips1868
Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:02 pm
#5
Ofu wrote:
Not to open a can of worms, but we should welcome change, as anything is better than what we have now, and look forward to the upcoming revamp.
With all due respect, I must disagree.
This isn't a case where we are debating two ways to improve a profession. This is a case of destroying one profession and replacing it with another (without changing the name). They are replacing squad leader, a profession design to cater to players interested in leading groups of players, to a magic (because mulitple leaders in a 8 person group would hurt not help group effciency, and thus buffs are nothing more than magic)based support profession.
Its harmful to game as whole as it detracts from the Star Wars experience and essenentially destroys one more avenue for a unqiue play style and replaces it with a generic arch-type class from lesser MMOs.
Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 09-23-2005 06:09 PM
Mirthain
Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:54 pm
#6
I hate to sound cynical, but the profession as it stands is providing buffs just as magically as you think the new ones are. The benefits of having an SL in the group are just as magically gained.
The change I see the dev's making is that instead of just magically enhancing the groups defences and movement they are requiring that the SL focus on those effects one at a time. Yes it makes the choices the SL makes more difficult, but challenging.
The ability to have other SL's in the group reflects a more "veteran" team, allowing more group capability. I personally don't see this as a bad thing.
Perhaps I'm not so worried about control since I typically only go out with my guildmates and don't have to worry about absolute command and control. Personally, having stackable abilities with other people would make my job easierand more interesting by having those other people capable of reacting to the needs of the squad interactively rather than just providing a set of magic enhancements by just standing there.
I do agree that some of the skills should be allowed by only the GL, retreat and system commands should only be used by the Group Leader.
My Newbie Sl 2 cents.
-Talen-
Ofu
Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:09 am
#7
One thing I've noticed in most organizations and re-organizations is the tendency of inertia to build up, and those affected the most resistant to change.
Considering that Squad Leader hasn't changed essentially since the game's release, those that are long time Squad Leaders maintain a lot of inertia and not to generalize but are hesitant to change.
I for one was looking forward to the Squad Leader Changes making it a Group Enhancer role that is a viable profession all the time, rather than a part-time profession that is dependent on group mechanics (i.e. Group Leader position).
Not to open a can of worms, but we should welcome change, as anything is better than what we have now, and look forward to the upcoming revamp.
The old-time Rangers are also rebelling, and I see that more are changed.
Honestly, I think got to take a look at things in a whole new light.
_scout_
Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:19 am
#8
this is going to be a shameless selfquote and copy and paste, but since some ppl dont tend to follow links
Im getting /poked/flamed/tired off / for this phrase but I ll gonna use it ..
You are missing the point ...
(A) The functionality of these buffs in connection with the multiple SL can apply these buffs is what bothers a lot of "old time/veteran" Squad leaders for several reasons.
From the simple : "one leader per group" isses to the "overstacking and imbalancing of stacked buffs" to the "abusing and griefing potential" as well as to the lack of distinguish between dabblers and Masters.
(B) Yes that the new changes do that, but it doesnt justifies the Profession Name Squad LEADER. Hence the /saracstic/ call for a name change.
(C) We all agree on that, old timers newcomers and soon the dabblers , the new buffs increase the overall effectiveness of the group but all/most these skill/buffs have nothing to do with anything leadership - like abilities.
Again as good as the new kind of buffs are, the functionality that several Squad leaders can use their buffs within a group, doesnt justify the profession name. I do values it that with this new system where multiple SL can apply their buffs, it will give me when Im grouped with another SL the option to still contribute with my skills to the group and enhance their experience and combat effectiveness but it drifts away from the original concept (if there ever was one though) of being the Leader (and giving buffs).
So how does a leader increases the effectiveness of his group usually? By buffing them (like a doctor) or by his tactical and strategical knowledge, as well as his communication skills, as well as that he knows how to increase a single persons effectiveness.
Its like american football, you got one quarterback on the field, who knows "where to put his men" and what he wants them to do. Its his tactical and strategical knowledge on which he bases his decisions what move to use.
He is not "buffing them", he doesnt "do" anything with them besides putting them there whe he wants them to be and do what he wants. He is also not "forcing" them to do that but everybody is willing to follow his orders because combined they will give them a coordinate attack/defense.
You also dont have two quarterbacks on the fields shouting different orders.
(D) If these are good changes the future will show on live BUT as mentioned several times they do not justify anymore the profession name squad LEADER
Now with above said:
How a leader enhances his squads combat effectiveness and how these could have been implemented.
They keywords are tactical and strategical advantage.
These abilities would make Squad Leader a Profession who could realy LEAD ppl, not just buff them.
Ofu wrote:
Considering that Squad Leader hasn't changed essentially since the game's release, those that are long time Squad Leaders maintain a lot of inertia and not to generalize but are hesitant to change. (A)
I for one was looking forward to the Squad Leader Changes making it a Group Enhancer (B)
role that is a viable profession all the time, rather than a part-time profession (C)
that is dependent on group mechanics (i.e. Group Leader position).
Not to open a can of worms, but we should welcome change, as anything is better than what we have now, and look forward to the upcoming revamp. (D)
Im getting /poked/flamed/tired off / for this phrase but I ll gonna use it ..
You are missing the point ...
(A) The functionality of these buffs in connection with the multiple SL can apply these buffs is what bothers a lot of "old time/veteran" Squad leaders for several reasons.
From the simple : "one leader per group" isses to the "overstacking and imbalancing of stacked buffs" to the "abusing and griefing potential" as well as to the lack of distinguish between dabblers and Masters.
(B) Yes that the new changes do that, but it doesnt justifies the Profession Name Squad LEADER. Hence the /saracstic/ call for a name change.
(C) We all agree on that, old timers newcomers and soon the dabblers , the new buffs increase the overall effectiveness of the group but all/most these skill/buffs have nothing to do with anything leadership - like abilities.
Again as good as the new kind of buffs are, the functionality that several Squad leaders can use their buffs within a group, doesnt justify the profession name. I do values it that with this new system where multiple SL can apply their buffs, it will give me when Im grouped with another SL the option to still contribute with my skills to the group and enhance their experience and combat effectiveness but it drifts away from the original concept (if there ever was one though) of being the Leader (and giving buffs).
So how does a leader increases the effectiveness of his group usually? By buffing them (like a doctor) or by his tactical and strategical knowledge, as well as his communication skills, as well as that he knows how to increase a single persons effectiveness.
Its like american football, you got one quarterback on the field, who knows "where to put his men" and what he wants them to do. Its his tactical and strategical knowledge on which he bases his decisions what move to use.
He is not "buffing them", he doesnt "do" anything with them besides putting them there whe he wants them to be and do what he wants. He is also not "forcing" them to do that but everybody is willing to follow his orders because combined they will give them a coordinate attack/defense.
You also dont have two quarterbacks on the fields shouting different orders.
(D) If these are good changes the future will show on live BUT as mentioned several times they do not justify anymore the profession name squad LEADER
Now with above said:
How a leader enhances his squads combat effectiveness and how these could have been implemented.
They keywords are tactical and strategical advantage.
- Group and single player waypoints: You can tactical position your groupmembers, as well as the whole group, as well as assign them into certain formations which they should hold (while waiting for the attack or before they charge), bringing us to:
Formations: Moving waypoints in relation to the squad leader, by holding these positions the groupmembers aquire certain "buffs" if you want, making the ppl want to stay within the formation.
Overhead maps: Giving the SL a better overview of the situation as well as his positions as well as that of his opponents. A High Detail Radar, with buildings as well every MOB and Player on this in a range of 256 if not 512m would realy give a strategical advantage.
Very coold would be an option to see what line of sight and thus line of fire the seperate groupmembers on that map have so you could start even using terrain to your advnntage
Dropzones, terrain negotation as passive buff, retreat and charge: These give a tactical advantage in conjustion with the above mentioned abilities you can posistion your group in a way fast into a position where their "setup" already gives them a benefits above the non SL group.
/sys messages, communications skills, larger raid parties: communication is on of the key issues during combat, if your communication is good, everybody knows what is going on and can react on what happenes. /sys was/is a very very usefull skill, coordination more ppl, without using spatial, thus without uncovering your tactics to the opposing side would be very usefull too.
These abilities would make Squad Leader a Profession who could realy LEAD ppl, not just buff them.
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