Squad Leader Archive

Over the last several days, three main camps have arisen with regard to the developers' proposed changes to the SL profession:

- Those who generally support and are favorably disposedto the proposed changes

- Those who are generally opposed to the proposed changes

- Those who are indifferent and prefer to wait and see.

Since we're starting to see the same arguments being repeated, I thought it would be useful to summarize the position of each camp so that we might all work from the same frame of reference. As a member of the opposition, I will attempt to summarize the points I have seen repeated by multiple posters against these changes. If someone from each of the other camps would like to summarize their positions, that would be beneficial to further discussions.

In no particular order:

The proposed changes do not address the existing issues raised through the correspondent process. Namely:

- The SL XP formula, which is currently a function of damage dealt and group size, is contradictory to what a SL should be doing during a battle (leading, not maximizing his own damage).

- Current abilities that don't work at all, do not have a significant impact on the group's effectiveness, have adverse side effects that outweigh benefits, and/or do not work reliably enough to be considered useful.

- Lack of uniqueness. We don't bring any significant unique abilities to a group. Presently, the effectiveness of a SL is entirely dependent on the player's leadership ability.

Furthermore, wehaven't been told whether these new abilities are supposed to augment the existing abilities or replace some or all of them.

Several of the proposed abilities violate the core design principle of allowing players to control their own actions within the game. We want to lead others, not control them. For better or worse, players want to control their own characters. Giving SLs the ability to control other players is bad for social gameplay,as well asopen to exploit (afk groups).

The proposed abilities can be duplicated with existing tools. A SL can achieve the same effects with a short briefing to his group, macros, and /sysgroup messages.

The proposed abilities have diminishing returns as skill level increases. In a group of skilled players (where the "control" abilities are unnecessary), the SL contributes little to the overall effectiveness of the group. This is because the majority of the proposed abilities focus on organizational changes, which players can easily work around, rather than adding tactical or techincal expertise.

The proposed abilities do not provide enough "bang for the buck" in terms of skill points expended.

- SL requires 72 skill points of prerequisites. Mastering the profession takes another 63. However, given that the role of the squad leader is to lead groups in combat, and SL XP is calculated based on damage dealt, a combat specialist profession is almost a necessity. A SL who masters SL and an elite ranged profession (pistol, carbine, rifle) will have only 38 skill points remaining with which to diversify. A melee SL will have only 23 remaining. This requires a level of specialization equivalent to a master bounty hunter.

- Given this extreme specialization, the proposed abilities do not have a significant enough impact to justify the skill points expended.

If anyone would like to expand on these points or add new ones, please do so.

In complete agreement here. I don't want control, I want to make my team better. (ie, buff them)

I agree with your points, and thecrux if the argument is that what we have, and what is proposed, do not reflect any sort of profession mastery. Currently my advice to anyone looking at SL is to take only Mobility III because that is what we offer. What is being proposed? Once again, a Doctor rezz's you, a Pistoleer has AOE ranged KD, a BH Eyeshots you, a CM has AOE range heals, a CH can pull out a Rancor...an Architect can build PA, a Weaponsmith can make the best guns in the game, an armorsmith can make composite armor (I've seen 38% resists now.) The list goes on and on! What is our Master Ability? Can you pick it out of the newly proposed abilities? No, none of them are more than a tier II, at the most.

But...they want us to control other people. Sigh.

I will say they have proposed a general revamping of the way xp is earned in groups. The implication is that xp will no longer be based on personal dmg dealt. If that is the case then the xp system will be mostly fixed.

The last point I would add is I am vehemently opposed to these changes (the vehemence has grown in the last week) because making the wrong change could be more detrimental to us than if they didn't change it at all. It could lead to endless tinkering with worse and worse skill sets when what the class really needs is a complete re-work.

We are dependant on people grouping with us but we give no incentive for them to do so. the new changes are more of the same.

Well said Tychus.

My only addition would be to tell the DEVs that the defensive/offensive stances combined with sub-squads is moving in the right direction IF these stances can make a difference in a battle. Many have said that the stances are bad because they may lower players' xp gains...but with a group xp rework as well as the fact that you'll get more xp by surviving longer against higher level mobs than you otherwise would, the stances could very well pay off. Another move in the right direction is the /forcedMarch skill, whichcould also be good and is in keeping with what most people think an SL should be.

--Ze'ev

I agree completely.

I'd like to expand a little by adding that my biggest concern with the new abilities is that they're primarily tools for dealing with people that I do not want to group with. Got a healer who won't heal? Call a SL. A ragamuffin who won't follow the group? Call a SL. A cowardly marksman who won't fire for fear of being aggroed? Call a SL...

For my squads, at least, these commands are useless, because I already have a command for dealing with uncooperative jerks and newbies who don't take advice. On the radial menu, it's called "Kick from group."

Seriously, all of these new commands really have more to do with showing people how you'd like them to play rather than actually playing with them. I don't want all of my powers geared towards keeping people in line. I want them to aid and assist those who already stay in line.

We need more buffs. The buffs we have need to work, and they need to work without killing us in the process. If we can't heal mind, then somebody needs to be able to to protect us from our own orders.

And what about abilities that would actually organize or enhance the group rather than letting us play for them? Maybe we could see all grop member's mission waypoints. Maybe we could control more faction pets than normal.

The changes, as proposed, are not worthwhile. If enacted, I'm going to have to consider dropping squad leader. I certainly will never play in a group led by a SL who can control me.

Thumbs up to this summary and the replies.

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TychusTM wrote:

The proposed abilities do not provide enough "bang for the buck" in terms of skill points expended.

- SL requires 72 skill points of prerequisites. Mastering the profession takes another 63. However, given that the role of the squad leader is to lead groups in combat, and SL XP is calculated based on damage dealt, a combat specialist profession is almost a necessity. A SL who masters SL and an elite ranged profession (pistol, carbine, rifle) will have only 38 skill points remaining with which to diversify. A melee SL will have only 23 remaining. This requires a level of specialization equivalent to a master bounty hunter.

- Given this extreme specialization, the proposed abilities do not have a significant enough impact to justify the skill points expended.

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Just to show everyone Tychus's point, here are the SP points required to Master each elite profession (In SP cost Order)

Bounty Hunter 217
Combat Medic 169
Commando 169
Ranger 140
Doctor 140
Squad Leader 135
Smuggler 121
Bio-engineer 121
Creature Handler 106
Dancer 106
Musician 106
Carbineer 92
Pistoleer 92
Rifleman 92
Fencer 92
Pikeman 92
Swordsman 92
Teras Kasi Artist 92
Architect 92
Armorsmith 92
Chef 92
Droid Engineer 92
Image Designer 92
Merchant 92
Tailor 92
Weaponsmith 92