Squad Leader Archive

Thread: Squad Leader Changes

Merc93
Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:31 am
#1


Squad Leader Changes


How disappointing. I dropped this profession over a year ago and I'm not sorry I did. it proved to be a complete waste of my time and I see that nothing has changed. I can't express in words what a huge let down this new template is. Over the last couple of years that I participated in the SL forums and play tested the profession myself there have been literally a hundred or so fantastic ideas on ways to improve the profession, and this template ignores every single one of them except the group way point idea. So tell me genius, if the NEW SL doesn't have to be the group leader to benefit the group, what you have done is encourage players form double-headed teams that are sure to conflict and not get anything doen. So one leader leads the group, while the other "leader" buffs the group and what happens the LSL sets a group waypoint? Will the first leader argue with him, or will he just follow orders from the REAL team leader who's probably a Jedi for all you know. That means you're not a "leader" now and never have been. You can't have two many chefs in the stew. You have to pick ONE leader and just one and every has to get in line behind him, or you don't have a "team" you have a "commitee" and while your' arguing over it, the real leaders will get move on and accomplish something without you. Who ever came up with this has no experience in real leadership and is a little confused about the use the terms here. No wonder a commmunity search never turns up other players playing this profession. What a waste...



Here's just a few of the things that we've changed:


Squad Leaders no longer need to be the group leader to benefit the group.


[Look, when you set a chain of command, and then create a second one what yo have done is stated that the former position is unimportant to it's role. You encourage others to circumvent the authority of poth positions by playing off like parents and totally undermine the leadership potential of either position. What you have done is transform the squad "leader" into a mere group buffer, and personally if I just wanted to serve others, I'ld join the Red Cross.]


This allows groups to have multiple Squad Leaders in a group and puts their leadership abilities based on skill and not just in a name.


[no, what it does is make too many chiefs and not enough braves. So tell me since SL is not a combat prof and can't match any other combat prof in the game, when you have a group full of SL's, who's going to do the fighting for you? The only way something like this would work is with very LARGE groups and last I checked the size of a group is limited, and all the SL's involved would have to be on the same page and well coordinated like a command structure to mutually benefit the handful of fighters you'll outnumber. There is no such discipline in SWG and there never will be. The reason for this is discipline in the ranks is based on punishment and rewards and this is not possible in an online game.]


Multiple Squad Leaders can combine their skills for greater group enhancement.[wonder twin powers, activate!] More Squad Leaders equals more buffs!


[okay "more" is not the same as "better". You have encouraged players to make a mess of their groups and I don't expect this will last long. People will get fed up with the hassles it will create and quit the prof. Just search the game, you'll see what I mean.]


<snip>


.


New group waypoint ability that works on the ground and in space.


{This is in essence a navigational tool used by the group coordinator to direct his team. So tell me, who's the leader? Maybe the Squad Leader will just follow orders, so he's really the Squad-Second-In-Charge]


<snip>


The Squad Leader skill set concentrates solely on group enhancing abilities and while they do include a full set of combat skill modifierss (defense, accuracy and speed) a Squad Leader is still strongly encouraged to pick up another combat profession skill set to flesh out their combat abilities.


[Did yo catch that? You're still worthless by yourself and you always will be. This methodology ruins the potential for really exciting squads. Very small squads in a general army don't accomplish much at all. Small squads in a SpecOps community do. SWG has small squads, often very small. The best role for a group that size is a commando squad or somthing similiar. Well, Commandos have no special abilities of anykind, another brilliant decision, so that means that a commando squad leader is just another joke and won't be able to defend himself. This guarantees that there will be no Commando Squads in SWG, ever. What a waste.]


All the passive abilities of the Squad Leader have been removed and changed to active buff abilities. This will make it easier to understand exactly what benefit is taking affect when. Also Squad Leader's no longer need to be the group leader for their abilities to take affect. This allows them more flexibility to benefit the group even when they are not the "official" leader as well as allowing multiple Squad Leaders in a group to combine their abilities.


[Benefit? Your thinking like a sixth-grader. I know, you'll say "this game is made for sixth graders!" So why requier a credit card to play, which yo have to 21 or older to hold? Paradoxes endless unreconcilliable paradoxes. Why does it all have to be so hard?]



New Group Buffs


<snip>


Let's take a look at the new group buffs:


[Okay, just for the record, Strategy is your plan. Tactics are the means you use to execute your plan. The author of this model is clearly confused.]


Steady Aim (Strategy I) - Enhances group accuracy.


Call to Arms (Strategy III) - Enhances group armor ratings.


Volley Fire (Strategy IV) - Gives group members the chance to bypass enemy armor.


Tactics (Tactics I) - Enhances group defenses.


Blaze of Glory (Tactics III) - Gives or enhances the chance to score a critical hit.


Double Time (Tactics IV) - Reduces cool-down times for group members.


Boost Morale (Leadership IV) - Enhances group Action/Mind regeneration.


Form Up (Mobility II) - Enhances group movement speed.


Retreat! (Mobility III) - Significantly enhances group movement speed for a short duration. All other combat actions are prevented while this ability is in effect.


Charge! (Mobility IV) - Significantly enhances group movement speed for a short duration. This ability places the Squad Leader at a heightened risk by reducing their defenses.


"Attack is a strategy of defense. Defense is a strategy of attack" -SunTzu


[This implies offense as a defensive measure and force security while in movement (offense). The author of this model neither understand leadership nor warfighting.]


I'm glad I dropped this profession and have kept forcused elsewhere. it's clear to me that if this is the big revamp we've been waiting for all this time, that it's going to be a huge waste of my time because whoever is making decisions for it doesn't understand the role and is only thinking of superficial game mechanics. It's a crying shame shame to see such potential thrown in the garbage.





"To overcome others armies without fighting is the best of skills. The superior militarist foils enemies plots. Next best is to ruin their alliances. Next after that, is to attack their armed forces. Worst, is to besiege their cities.” -Sun Tzu: The Art of War
TireeG2
Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:52 am
#2



-edited-


I was rather put off by this post at first. I'm not real pleased when people come in and start bashing what is probably my favorrite profession. I also get tired of the devs are so stupid, deaf, etc. posts. I've stuck with this game ever since launch, and while I don't agree with all the changes and decisions made, I do believe overall they've done a good job of it so far.


I gotta get back to work but quickly, just a few of my thoughts on the subject. Who has leadership in the group should be established by the players. I'm still in favor of SLs being GL for balance, and a few other reasons.


As far as SL being useless, I just plain disagree. I believe SLs have several good abilites and advantages, and I'm proud to be one. I think when they publish comes, they're just going to be even more so. I look forward to it for that, and for getting a chance to try and figure out how to use it best. Maybe I'll come back and expand on this more later...

Message Edited by TireeG2 on 10-05-2005 12:37 PM



cccccccccccccccccccccccccc ccccccccccccccBrighamBasilone-Eclipsecc ccccccccccccBriggBasilone-Radiantccc cccccccccccBelieve me sweetie, I got enough to feed the needycccccccc
BadChef
Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:40 am
#3

Can't say I disagree with you. I wont be dropping SL though.




xfire name: thachef
__________
BadChef: Smuggler
HzGuderian
Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:40 am
#4

While I do not support the multiple SL's, I can also see where plain good leadership will keep the SL squarely at the heart of the group. I've watched any mix of professions lead groups, simply because they were good at it and people followed. We have a SL here on the forums who has dancer (or was it musician?) as their second profession. Not the uber person on the field, but respected and liked. I've also watched SL's lose control of a group, due to their own lack of leadership skills or there is just a much more charismatic and/or good leader in the group who naturally takes control. So, while SOE does not help us with this new system, some of 'taking command' falls on our own shoulders anyway.
And it sounds like they are using Strategy to depict offensive action and Tactics to depict defensive. Strategy is both offensive and defensive, as is Tactics. Sun Tzu's quote does not try to divide them either way, and isn't applicable here. You can also find modern day examples of the same idea, 'The best defense is a good offense.' for example, but it still is not relavent to what they name a skill box.

I'm sorry you did not like Squad Leader. It is too bad you to not find any use for the new Squad Leader. Enjoy your gaming experience. We will enjoy ours, in our own way.




Heinz Guderian
Colonel, Imperial Army
Commander
Knights of Mors Astralis (AMOK)
Ahazi
Sylow
Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:50 am
#5

Aye... i am not worrying that the SL will be bad, i also am not worrying about naming of the skillboxes. I even don't worry about leading or not, i know that my orders are followed if i give them (at least among people who work with me) but i also obey orders (even in the current system) if somebody is more knowledgeable in a field then i am. (Happens all the time... )


My worries are actually that we'll be way too strong with the presented buff-system and that we'll soon have a bad reputation and/or will be nerfed into oblivion again. Anyways, Keldarin said that adjusting the system according to our suggesions of improvement would be rather time consuming. Since pre-Pub 24 disappeared from TC soon after turning up and didn't make a return yet, i very much hope that Keldarin actually got the time to do the improvements and we'll see a beautiful and balanced new SL system then.


In my eyes, all concerns were voiced repeatedly, right now it's time to wait for the profession to hit TC again, see how it performs and then point out problems and issues again.









Learn to sing!
Infinity - Papyn Biboon
MSL, MCarb Grunt Leader
Merc93
Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:39 am
#6

Well, my goal is not offend anyone, but rather to shock the community and get their attention. Inevitably when this happens people will be offended. The reason I criticize these changes is because criticism is a form of feedback and SOE will not know what our expectations are without it. I tried playing this prof for a very long time and yes, unless you happen to log in during prime time hours and have regular friends to group with, it's pretty much useless. I notice the first responder here is on my server, so try this exercise: Open your community and search for SL's ONLINE and count them. No, when I'm done here, I'll go back to my profession, and you'll get to yours and life will go on. Unfortunately all those thousands of posts written by the community and hundreds apon hundreds of great ideas generated by brainstorming debates will be thrown in garbage never to see attention again. I don't see any of those ideas presented here, not one except the group waypoint thing and you'll see how that will work under the current model. They really could have done so much better than this and it's a crying shame they didn't because I really loved the profession too but was forced to play something else so I could enjoy the game. If you like it the way it is, great. More power to ya.



"To overcome others armies without fighting is the best of skills. The superior militarist foils enemies plots. Next best is to ruin their alliances. Next after that, is to attack their armed forces. Worst, is to besiege their cities.” -Sun Tzu: The Art of War
Merc93
Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:01 am
#7

Okay, the revised template I just looked at on the Test Center page looks a lot better. It retains it's focus on group enhancement but accounts for solo periods as well. The reason this is important and does not interfere with the concept of SL is because officers are targets for capture and held for interrogation and ransom. Consequently they are given the means to handle themselves alone and are capable of defending themselves. Officers typically recieve better military training than the average recruit, but I acknowledge that a SL need not be the team leader of a combat oriented group as Thunderheart originally indicated over a year ago. However, when one is in an operations area, during wartime it only makes sense that they be able to handle themselves. I hope those one or two individual buffs can be applied to SL himself also. This new template combined with the special SL weapon granted during CU make a much better profession that might allow for more tactical engagements than I've seen in the past. If they ever release a GCW expansion, maybe they'll be big about it and create some of those batlefield fortifications everyone used to talk about for SL's to deploy. that will really bring the profession home and make it an exciting role to play that fills like it ought too.



"To overcome others armies without fighting is the best of skills. The superior militarist foils enemies plots. Next best is to ruin their alliances. Next after that, is to attack their armed forces. Worst, is to besiege their cities.” -Sun Tzu: The Art of War
Page 1 of 1
Previous Next