Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Look...
I'm not going to be constructive in this post. I am angry after reading the thread on the proposed changes, and I am going to rant. The DEVs will never read this post, most likely, but what I am going to say is what needs to be said.
I really think that the DEVs aren't 'getting it,' and that, if the new changes to SL come and the DEVsthink that said changes 'fix' this class, then it will ruin our chances of ever getting a real fix.
I think that, judging from the changes proposed by our loving DEVs, they apparently do not have a clue about how these games work-- especially not SWG. Their proposed changes not only ignore the inherent dynamics of combat in SWG; they also completely avoid the individualistic and spirited nature of people who play games like this, and cut a nasty swath of disillusion across the idealistic little fairy-tale concept of the DEVs actually knowing what they are doing.
I see it this way:
- Squad Leader should be SWG's equivalent of a 'mass buffing' class. IE, a person who is an SL should give up some of the personal power that they would have originally had-- had they chosen a more proficient combat class (like CH, for example)-- and instead gain the ability to aid a large group, or a Squad. People want to be 'buffed,' not be led around by the nose... which leads to my next point...
- Which is that, Inherently, people like to be rather autonomous in games like this. Inthe fast-paced and often-laggy combat situations in this game, the idea of issuing orders that might sacrafice the personal safety of individual squad members for the good of the group simply will not fly. People will not like being forced to do things-- instead of being a Squad Leader, the SL will, instead, be a Squad Breaker, as the abilties that said SL would then pocess inherently go against the individualistic vein in which SWG was developed.
- Finally, SOE needs to learn from its previous experiences. I'm not asking for a carbon-copy of EQ-- not by a long shot. However, I think that a lot of the things that EQ had are what people in SWG are looking for in their classes. For example, I am of the personal belief that Field Medics should be able to ressurect fallen players at a significant-- and nearly fatal--drain to their mind pool. This would prevent in-combat rezzing, as a FM that rezzed during a battle would likely die in the next hit, but would give them a new, and extremely viable skill. SL needs to be the same way. People love group buffs, because it lets a valued member of the party mindlessly aid the group in a way that doesn't interfere with player's individual goals or intentions. If an SL really was the major 'buffing' soldier in SWG, it would inherently make the SL the group leader. Why? Because a group would fight and die by their SL... SL-less groups would be at a distinct disadvantage, and because of that, an SL in a group would tend to hang back at the field of battle and shout warnings and orders--EXACTLY as real-life commanders do. In real life 'Squad Leaders' don't shout orders and innately expect that everyone will follow them. For example... if a bunch of troops are lying in a trench and one of them is keeping the head of the opposing trench's machine gunner down with cover fire, and the SL yells for everyone in the Squad to kill another person who has appeared, would the guy keeping the head of the machine-gunner down instantly turn and open fire? Obviously not, and the SL in SWG shouldn't be given the ability to do such things. Modern combat revolves around the idea that a well-trained soldier, separated from his platoon,will still be able to function as a fighting unit:modern commanders realize their troopershave brains, and SOE seems to be forgetting that all the members of a squad reallydo have brains.Essentially, SOE seems to be determined to turn an SL's group into a bunchmindless dolls.SLs who endanger the existances of their squads by ordering people to fire on new 'SL Designated'targets while they are getting ripped up by the individual they were just firing on will turn our class in social pariahs. Instead of every group wanting or needing an SL, we will be avoided because many of our number will not be as good as they might be as 'directing the puppets' on the battlefield as others, and thusly as a whole we will be shunned.
In conclusion, the newly-proposed changes for SL are a joke. People already don't like the 'pet show' that SWG has become, and turning the SL into the ring-master of a three-ring-circus is not the answer to our broken class. We need excellent, innert, innatebuffs and very, very few command-directed orders: just the right ballance of extremely sweet buffs and a few commands we can use that will aid our team in combat. I don't relish in the idea of myself, as an SL, dangling the little threads of the jockeying puppets that my squad-mateswill become, and I doubt any of youdo either.
sometimes im really impressed by the maturity and good posting this board does and the lack of spamming and trolling.
Squad Leader posters continue to place forward intelligent well thought out posts and the Devs will continue to ignore them.
Goto the CH forum and everyone ones and things are changed quickly...hate to say (and also pun it)it but a change of tactics might be the order of the day...
/rally Proffesion
you fail to rally Proffesion
/rally Proffession
you fail to rally Profession
/rally Profession
you fail to rally Profession
/ral..you have been nerfed by the devs
'**edit** you mean i been nerfed by the devs how can you nerf a broken profession??'
/rally
sorry it wont work now dave
/rally
dave i wont let you do that - how about forcing people to do your bidding would you like that?
no.
/rally
dave look people are getting pO'd at you for forcing them to attack a target
/rally ffssjfhaskfhkj
Dave look see how coool SL's will be for a 137 skill points you can make people /follow you
I mean dave how good is that? not like you can type /say Hey guys we leaving /follow me if going afk is it Dave?
Only 137 skill points to do that dave!
You have surrendered skill points
Sing the song dev go on....
You have surrendered skill points
im half crazy la la lala la
Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvveeeeeemmmmmmmmmuphful
The EQ example is good. I am a member of a longtime guild with some raid experience over several years. Its true in EQ you had no way of directly enforcing someone to behave in a fight correctly, leave the mezzed targets alone, assist the main assist always. and then only when directed by the main assist. Combat in EQ was always very centralized because it was melee centric. Whether you had 6 or 60 or more the main assist was the center and moved with it, ranged combat, spell casting, was directed to this point, being in position the responsiblity of the caster. Being a main assist for my guild in EQ, I would have really liked a single command I could give to have everyone in my raid have my target. What did we do to enforce compliance with this? You couldn't be part of my guild if you couldn't assist correctly, you couldn't stay on our raid if you didn't assist correctly.
I really think that some over estimate people's reluctance to being told what their next target is in a group situation. The squad leader isn't intended to make easy situations trivial, but to make difficult things possible.
Having a squad leader determine a target for their group just puts it up there, you can still as individual hit tab after and get a different one or select one after that. If told to hold fire you still can return if attacked.
In general so far, the troubles raised, the abilities asked for tend to wish that the squad leader abilities be applied passively to the group and not actively. We point out that group members can go afk while we do our thing, but ask that we be able to go afk while our benefits apply to the group. Personally I would like us to be active in group management and leave the buffing to doctors, chefs and smugglers.
again ill say it
if used effectively in the rigth circumstances the new commands will be highly prized
of course im not going to force peopel along by the nose in laggy-ass bestine or anchrhead
use your brain and use the skills right...and its a hella lot better than what we go tnow (provided they also fix everythign else thats wrong now)
another thing..ive said again over and over
if these commands and stuff are so bad.....
then why have countless militaries throughout the world......used them for hudnreds of years ?
Then you will be one of the few SL left out there. and your four RL friends will be some of the few who will group with you.
People who play these games do not want someone taking over their character. They will not enjoy it and will not group with you.
i completely agree with you i think that the SL should be like the Paladin in D2 the best things about him
was his aura that buffed up your party thats what a SL should be
People love group buffs, because it lets a valued member of the party mindlessly aid the group in a way that doesn't interfere with player's individual goals or intentions.
Well, hopefully if you're grouped with other people, the group has a unified goal. Why else would you group? As for being told to "mindlessly" attack a single target, you use the example of one person supressing the fire of a machine gunner. In real life combat, it's pretty rare that a group of soldiers will ever uniformly strike the same target. This is what multiple, individual fields of fire are for. Concentrated fire is generally reserved for heavy threats. It will take good judgement on the part of the squad leaders in this game and the trust of their teammates to know when to use this and when not to. If someone gets a reputation as being too controlling of a squad leader, eventually no one will want to group with them. Problem solved. Like it's been said time and time again, just because you have the squad leader title, doesn't mean you're good at leading a squad.
In my mind, SL should not be a mass buff dummy profession like there are in many other games. SL's abilities should encompass skills that help the group to focus their resources as well as possible - i.e firepower control and targeting. Luckily they have seen this and the new skill set is exactly what the profession is all about in real life and now in game.
But PanzerGR... militaries all over the world have members that have no choice but to obey or be punished. We are talking about players here with free will to say "screw it, regroup without the SL"
It's a game. Having a SL issue a command to control me, turns me into a pet - and ruins my entertainment value.
What we need are skills that are on par with Doctor or Combat Medic or Creature Handler. Not the same TYPES of skills, but they should AT LEAST be in as much demand. Basically, I would rather have a FIFTH Doctor in my group than ONE Squad Leader and FOUR Doctors. That's a sure sign that a Profession sucks. Almost ANY other Elite/Hybrid Profession (excluding non-combat classes like Entertainers and Artisans) would be preferable to Squad Leader. Combat Medic, Ranger, you name it. We went from being a joke to being a bossy joke.