Squad Leader Archive

GREAT A SPAMMER REPLY!

btw I like everything but the Terrain negotiation, it should stay as a modifier.................. (not depending on your scout/ranger skill.... :smileyindifferent

hehe 2607 repetitions make it true..

I guess the looping reply did not read the part where it said that group members only fall in the set formation if they click autofollow on SL. Its not puppetting.. if they dont want to, dont autofollow the SL, just autofollow someone else in group.

And its only a moving formation, it doesnt give any bonuses or whatnot to be in column or vee... but it might be useful while moving from point A to point B or even during combat (just have a fellow SL lead you into combat when you are in autofollow mode.. in flat terrain it frees you 100% from having to navigate and you can concentrate on firing...or if you a combat medic, on healing and poisoning).

Man, I really wish you were a dev when they were designing SL.Those skills are so much more usefull than what we have currently.

Movement Tree:

Box1 (5pnt box): Formations (only work when members have you on autofollow): Wedge, Vee, Inline, Line Abreast, Diamond. (lasts until command removed by SL)

What is the purpose of this? It sounds cool to be able to make a squad look likemore disciplined, but having seent the paranoia of non-SL's regarding "puppeteering" it seems like it'll freak more people out than it'll appease but for no particular reason.

Box2: Infiltration (only affects those in a groupformation): group is not detected in radar range until its inside 64m. Lasts 1 minute.

Seems like a bit of a waste given a much more useful skill in the very next box. Good place to put bonuses I guess, save them the time of coding a skill that'll become obsolete very quickly.

Box3: Concealment (onlyaffects those in a group formation): group invisible to radar at any range as long as group does not move. Any group member moving will be seen in radar until his movements stop. Lasts5 minutes or until SL moves (SL moving cancels thegroup effect)

Very interesting idea. I'm assuming thiswill affect PvP only? If so, I love it.

Box4 (2pnt box): March(again, only affects those in formation): group members receive thesame terrain negotiation as thesquad leader has, as long as they are in formation.

Heck yeah. Coupled with making terrain negotiation more useful, this would be great. Maybe this should be box 3 and Concealment Box 4 though? In that case you could make a better case for keeping Infiltration too...

Strategy Tree:

Box1: Waypoint Set: SL puts mouse in either radar or in the game screen, presses hotkey, creates waypoint that all group will see (if SL has no target) or creates waypoint for individual squad member (if SL has squad member targetted).

Someone's been playing Planetside =) It was a great idea there, would be a great skill here.

Box2: Satellite Uplink: SL gives whole group increased radar range out to 512m. Will show all player characters and existing in-game npc's (we all know some npc's just spawn in your face, but this will show those that are far away and have already spawned). Lasts 1 minute.

Sounds like this kind of thing would slow down or be ineffective on clients with slow internet connections. May be more reasonable to just alert the squad (distance and direction) when a player from the opposite faction comes within 512m.

Box3: Fire Team Designation: SL has the ability to split group into subgroups of players. in SL's screen the individual players dissapear from his (and only his) group listing and are replaced by the person designated as leader of sub-group (aka, the first squad member to be assigned to subgroup) with a star icon next to his ham bars.. 1 star icon per member in subgroup.

SL then can just click on subgroup leader and issue an order to that subgroup only.. if no subgroup leader is selected then order goes to the whole group.

I'm not certain I like this idea. Sounds like a lot of code. Not the kind of thing developers go for post-release, and something that can be accomplished (albeit harder) with chat.

Box4: Rules of Engagement: Powerful SL ability that will pop a message in each squad member's screen (a-la system message) that will tell the group member the effectiveness of his equipped weapon vs what he has targetted.This will take into account target's resists and armor rating (for example, group member targetting armor2 creature that has 50% energy resist while having a 0 armor penetetration energy damage weapon: 'ROE: Cannot Penetrate Armor, Weapon 50% Effective against target').

Really like this idea =) I have to wonder if it wouldn't be more appropriate for a Commando though, someone that's much more experienced with different kinds of weapons and their uses... we're more about leadership and cooperation.

Leadership Tree

Box1:Rally: Action-intensive SL ability,Removes all effects on group members. Bleeds,Stun,Blind,On Fire, Dizzy,etc. Can only be used every2 minutes.

This is the first skill I think you need to be careful with, because it would be a replacement for something we already have, but is not effective. A dev is gonna look at this and say, "Hey wait, I'm not gonna recode the same skill with a 2 minute timer, screw that". Or if they do re-code it, it's likely to have the exact same downfall as what we already have. This type of thing might be better approached as a tweak to the current ability with very specific changes (decrease failure rate, decrease HAM usage, etc.)

Box2: Target Designation: Group members will see SL's target having a 'waypoint' light pillar.

I'd rather it was a big red target, personally. Love this idea.

Box3: Field Discipline: Mind-intensive SL ability, group receives increased primary ham bar regeneration, lasts 2 minutes, does not affect the SL.

I tend to like this but worry about class jealousy. It certainly would be a great skill to represent an increase in the camping ability that is a pre-requisite to Squad Leader (maybe should only be use-able in camps? Then you could probably do away with the time limit.)

Box4: Hold Fire/Fire at Target: Powerful SL abilities, Hold Fire prevents group from ENTERING combat, Fire at Target makes group ENTER combat firing at SL's target. This does not work on group members already in combat or if SL is in combat. Group members lose the hold fire/fire at target command if they are attacked.

I can hear the "puppeteer" cries from the future. Maybe this wouldn't be a good idea. Don't get me wrong, I like it, but I don't think it's worth the trouble and negative attention to the class.

Tactics Tree:

Box1: Steady Aim: Makes group's shots be like if they were usingtheir own /aim command, but without taking a combat roundpenalty. Lasts 1 minute.

See Steady Aim thread and Rally comments above, same story pretty much =)

Box2: Volley Fire: Lower spd of group's weapons to 1 sec, have all group fire at SL's targetfor 5 seconds,after 5 secs squad's weapons return to their normal spd's.

Perhaps a less invasive approach would be more reasonable? Something that wouldn't affect multiple rounds of your squad's normal combat would be easier to convince non-SL'sto agree to. Again, this would be a replacement to a current ability, so we'd need to approach it as such. What's wrong with the current ability? Why does it need changes? That sort of thing.

I think it would be least invasive to leave it the way it is, it just... um... borrows a round of combat from each player, waits til everyone is ready to fire, then everyone fires their one shot at the designated target, perhaps with a huge bonus to accuracy, a small bonus to damage, and a status effect (intimidated?). Large Mind cost would keep it from being used too frequently. I think I read some of this somewhere. Sorry to whoever I stole it from =)

Box3: Cover Fire: Works just like the current volley fire, except that group fires at an area 50m around SL's target. Shots from group will cause a random effect on anything they hit: bleed,stun,dizzy,knockdown,blind.

Sounds crazy. Gotta love it =)

Box4: Smoke Screen: SL lays a screen of smoke 100m long, 20m in front of him. Smoke severely hampers the ranged accuracy of everyone 150m near it (including group members).

Finally something that would help the brawlers in the group. I'd personally like to see this lower on the box list, but it's a great idea.

to answer your post 1 by 1..

Purpose of formations: You must think outside the box. Formations, when just going to point A to point B would enable the SL to set a more terrain-friendly 'follow' mode for group. And also will set the vulnerability of a group in case they get jumped. Aka, single line behind SL is good for moving without having people bump into trees. And like in real life military, formations spread out the group's firepower, line of sight .. or narrow it.

In short, how would you like your group to enter a combat situation? in single file (group's firepower all in the rear and cannot be brought to bear quickly) or in Vee? (group's firepower already brought to bear and spread to either side so fire can be directed either way and group is not vulnerable in either flank).

box2 and 3: One of them is for setting up ambushes. no players will see your group when its STATIC. the other one lets your group move and not be detected until its inside 64m. Players usually appear in radar at 128m (detect) and can remain in radar out to 512 if they running away from you.

the last movement box is to make all player's terrain negotiation be = to squadleader's so that when they are in formation (only way ANY of the movement tree works) they wont fall behind the SL. You're the mother hen, dont let your chicks stray. Terrain +mods can bite me, i prefer simplicity. cluckcluck.

Strategy Tree

box1 : never played planetside.

box2 : you already receive stuff out to 512 but only after you pass by them at 64m. Clutter, client lag... heck many things in this game are far more hogging that this. I dont see it being a problem.

box3: of course it will take work. Its an ability thats VITAL to any group leader: the ability to delegate and/or assign functions within a group and organize. Why this wasnt in the SL line to begin with is beyond me.

box4: ROE would benefit all, not only commandos. all gun classes have access to guns with different damage types. Rifles have access to stun and cold damage types, pistols to acid. I added this one in because you wont believe how many people just keep shooting the gun type that the creature is 100% resistant to.. this is detrimental to the group's firepower. Telling them how effective their fire will be is not only good for group, but good for the player: you get more xp the more damage you do.. so its sheer self interest to switch to that cold -damage based rifle if your group is hitting a 100% energy resist creature.

leadership

box1: current 'form up' only removes blind and stun. not bleeds or on fire. this is mostly for pvp combat, as in pve the creature inmediately re-applies the effect.

box2: pillars of light, big red arrows over their heads, pink elephants on their shoulders...whatever works to point out the SL's target to others.

box3: this skill is to give the SL the ability to give the group an extra kick in performance. im not saying this will heal ham bars to full in minutes.. heck no. just a 10% increase in regen is tops.

box4: actually i think this removes the 'puppeteering' issue. if you read carefuly, it prevents people from entering combat on their own and the fire at target lets the group ENTER combat targeting sl's target. If another player or mob attacks group this restriction is removed. Its all so that an SL, and the group, can be assured that a member trying to target a creature while on-the-run doesn't double click himself into combat with that krayt dragon in the distance. And for those who DO want to enter combat whenever the heck they want to with whatever they want to without regard for the group's safety: you know they will be kicked out of the group FAST..just as they are now. If that player dont like the SL restriction he can leave, just like players can leave groups that have medics that can heal poorly or have high damage players that dont let them get xp.

Tactics:

volley fire: Right now the volley fire does NOTHING. 1 shot of normal fire from every group member will only be effective against a 500 ham creature. When have you seen groups hunt 500 ham creatures? Take a baz for example, issue volley fire against it. It will take about 600 to 800 ham damage in 1 round of combat..FA! thats like 2% of its total ham bar. Baz laughs at you and kills one of your groupmembers. An effective volley fire has to deal damage fast and be high enough damage to make a difference. Most guns on regular fire do 200-300 damage. if a group of 10 people fire 200-300 damage shots at 1 sec refire during 5 secs.. thats 5 shots per person, 50 shots from the group. 50X300=1500 damage.

smoke screen is on the last box because it is also very effective with gun users. sure your aim goes to heck, but it also allows you get away, regroup, flank (smoke also dont let you see) and basically gives the melee users a free chance to charge people who are blinded and cant shoot you down. Its very powerful.

box2 and 3 and the last movement box:

Sounds pretty freakin cool. I'd love to see that happen. I would still like to see box 4 and 3 switch places. Being able to sneak a whole group up into an ambushing position sounds much more powerful than making people run the same speed as you. Also for consistency's sake, you don't get similar skills in the same tree one right after the other very often, if at all. Gotta spend a little more time workin onthat skill treeto get major improvements.

Strategy Tree

box1 : never played planetside.

You should =) Great game, if only for a couple days, just to see some of the stuff they did with it.

box4:

I didn't mean that it should only work on Commandos, I meant maybe it should just be a skill in the Commando tree. They're the weapons experts, we're the leaders. Seems to me it's just more fitting that another more weapon-oriented class gets an ability like this, and Commando makes more sense than Bounty Hunter.

Regarding Purpose of formations, leadership box4, volley fire:

Just so long as you realize that you have very liberal views of "puppeteering". This board maycater somewhat to abilities that exert increasingly extreme amounts ofcontrol over squad members' actions, but the rest of the community, I assure you, will vehemently oppose it. As a rule of thumb, if an abilitytakes away from the judgement or control capabilities of another player, expect opposition. Abilities that point out what their leader wants their target to be... that's fine, they can use their own judgement. Abilities that give the squad waypoints, that's great. Abilities that form your squad into a formation of the leader's choosing if the whole squad is in follow, that could be fine. Abilities that cause your whole squad to lose their intended target for 5 rounds of combat, unable to change or use their own abilities... well, let's just say that may be pushing the bounds of patience.

You are misreading me again.

Formations are not puppeteering. If you dont want to, dont autofollow the leader. simple. by that you dont fall into the leader's formation.

Volley Fire: Its not 5 rounds of combat. Its compressing 5 rounds of combat into 1 or 2rounds of combat (thats why the group's weapon speeds drop to the cap of 1 second during this SL ability). Most weapons have an avg of 2.5 secs per combat round (heavier weps have 3 to 4). Currently the SL already 'puppets' people in 1 round of combat, and thats to do insignificant damage.. you dont see them whining about that do you? 2 rounds of combat to do significant damage should not be met with puppeteering whines. Especially when this ability would consume a lot more ham than it currently does since it is way better than the current volley fire.

Since im at work, bored, here's another super lengthy idea post

What if the SL tree was:

Movement Tree:

Box1 (5pnt box): Formations (only work when members have you on autofollow): Wedge, Vee, Inline, Line Abreast, Diamond. (lasts until command removed by SL)

Box2: Infiltration (only affects those in a groupformation): group is not detected in radar range until its inside 64m. Lasts 1 minute.

Box3: Concealment (onlyaffects those in a group formation): group invisible to radar at any range as long as group does not move. Any group member moving will be seen in radar until his movements stop. Lasts5 minutes or until SL moves (SL moving cancels thegroup effect)

Box4 (2pnt box): March(again, only affects those in formation): group members receive thesame terrain negotiation as thesquad leader has, as long as they are in formation.

Strategy Tree:

Box1: Waypoint Set: SL puts mouse in either radar or in the game screen, presses hotkey, creates waypoint that all group will see (if SL has no target) or creates waypoint for individual squad member (if SL has squad member targetted).

Box2: Satellite Uplink: SL gives whole group increased radar range out to 512m. Will show all player characters and existing in-game npc's (we all know some npc's just spawn in your face, but this will show those that are far away and have already spawned). Lasts 1 minute.

Box3: Fire Team Designation: SL has the ability to split group into subgroups of players. in SL's screen the individual players dissapear from his (and only his) group listing and are replaced by the person designated as leader of sub-group (aka, the first squad member to be assigned to subgroup) with a star icon next to his ham bars.. 1 star icon per member in subgroup.

SL then can just click on subgroup leader and issue an order to that subgroup only.. if no subgroup leader is selected then order goes to the whole group.

Box4: Rules of Engagement: Powerful SL ability that will pop a message in each squad member's screen (a-la system message) that will tell the group member the effectiveness of his equipped weapon vs what he has targetted.This will take into account target's resists and armor rating (for example, group member targetting armor2 creature that has 50% energy resist while having a 0 armor penetetration energy damage weapon: 'ROE: Cannot Penetrate Armor, Weapon 50% Effective against target').

Leadership Tree

Box1:Rally: Action-intensive SL ability,Removes all effects on group members. Bleeds,Stun,Blind,On Fire, Dizzy,etc. Can only be used every2 minutes.

Box2: Target Designation: Group members will see SL's target having a 'waypoint' light pillar.

Box3: Field Discipline: Mind-intensive SL ability, group receives increased primary ham bar regeneration, lasts 2 minutes, does not affect the SL.

Box4: Hold Fire/Fire at Target: Powerful SL abilities, Hold Fire prevents group from ENTERING combat, Fire at Target makes group ENTER combat firing at SL's target. This does not work on group members already in combat or if SL is in combat. Group members lose the hold fire/fire at target command if they are attacked.

Tactics Tree:

Box1: Steady Aim: Makes group's shots be like if they were usingtheir own /aim command, but without taking a combat roundpenalty. Lasts 1 minute.

Box2: Volley Fire: Lower spd of group's weapons to 1 sec, have all group fire at SL's targetfor 5 seconds,after 5 secs squad's weapons return to their normal spd's.

Box3: Cover Fire: Works just like the current volley fire, except that group fires at an area 50m around SL's target. Shots from group will cause a random effect on anything they hit: bleed,stun,dizzy,knockdown,blind.

Box4: Smoke Screen: SL lays a screen of smoke 100m long, 20m in front of him. Smoke severely hampers the ranged accuracy of everyone 150m near it (including group members).

There again, formation make player act like pets

Tho very good

Very good and much improved, but ive seen better. I could find the thread, buttttt im to lazy.

rothgarr