Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Post for CaptVemnox
Tried to priv message you this but it only allows 2k chars. so im posting it here.
Its my 'personal' report to you about the SL. I compiled like 3 posts i made in the past days into 1.
(and yes im bored at work too 
)
-State of the Squad Leader-
As it is now, being a Squad Leader is 90% the person playing it, 10% the abilities granted by the class.
Analyzing the class itself compared to other elite classes and what they get in return for their skill points... we find:
-Terrain Negotiation and Burst Run bonuses: Minimally useful since most players do get exploration1. Burst run bonus perhaps is minorly useful since extremely few people actually burst run for anything other than escaping.
That's 14 skill points for bonuses that i'd dare say, help the group 5% of the time. And thats being generous.
-Steady Aim and Volley Fire: Useful abilities that help a group for a round or 2. Sadly, the HAM cost of these 2 abilities does not compensate for the minimal boost it gives the group. Most classes have high accuracy ratings with their weapons, making Steady Aim be only really useful for commandos trying to aim their weapons from long range... and Volley Fire only directs group to fire their next round at the target, then switch back to their original targets. Volley Fire does not provide a squad leader, or the squad itself for that matter, with any kind of improvement to the squad's force projection (no, not jedi 'force'). For example, if a group is hunting Baz in dathomir, group is together firing at baz while pets tank and one baz pops and rushes a member of the squad... squad leader issues volley fire... all the group's guns turn to that baz, shoot only once with a NORMAL shot (tested with friends having them spam overcharge shot until it scrolled 2 pages up in their combat queue, issued volley fire, the volley they fired was a normal shot not an overcharge), then they switch back to their original target: the baz the pets are tanking, not the baz that, having received a volley of (insert # of group members with guns here) normal shots, is now perhaps 80% life, is happily chewing on your squad member's throat.
Thats 14 skill points for 2 active abilities.. one who'se accuracy increase is not really noticeable (Steady Aim) unless you got an acid rifle wielding, cross-eyed commando with delusions of sniperhood; and another ability that gives the illusion of coordinated fire (Volley Fire). Both together I say these abilities increase a squad's effectiveness in combat vs a squad without a squad leader, by about... another 5%.
Group System Message: We know what it does: puts a text message in people's screen (preferably in some bright color so it's easily seen). This ability is key to the squad leader, as it allows him to have a form of communication above the normal chat window. 100% reliant on the players in the squad itself. Firstoff, people being able to read it! Combat, system message spam and the fast speed in which the groupsys message fades out makes the SL's message be missed in the thick of combat about 40% of times.. second is the group member's willingness to actually follow orders. Nothing but a glorified chat system, the Sysgroup command's effectiveness is completely based on the players. You can achieve the same effect by changing your in-group and in-spatial chat text to be bright pink and typing in caps.. as most people do in other MMPOG's when leading groups.
Thats 6 Skill Points (Novice SL) to get this one ability. I'd say this ability helps the group 60% of the times.
Melee Bonuses, Form Up, Boost Morale: Melee bonuses, as its been tested by others in these forums, are only effective when stacked over the player's existing bonuses. In short, a gun user receiving these bonuses does not benefit, since a creature or melee player will still force him into a dirtnap in the same # of attack rounds. A melee player will receive a boost to his defense, albeit these bonuses are again, minimal for the squad's performance as a squad. Form Up removes dizzy and stunned effects, quite a 'uniquely' situational ability and of minor consequence.. as these effects are almost instantly re-applied to squad members by npc's/mobs and on pvp, stunned has little effect in combat performance and dizzy is only fatal when changing stances... something that is highly unusual in pvp run-around-the-mill combat situations. Boost Morale spreads wounds across the entire group. Of all SL abilities this is perhaps the most useless one. No sane squad leader would bring down the fighting effectiveness of the entire group to bring up the effectiveness of one member. A player with 70% black ham bars should not be brought up to just 30% black ham bars by making the rest of the unwounded squad have 10% black ham bars, making everyone in the group easier to kill.
Thats 14 skill points in for bonuses that do not increase a squad's effectiveness as a squad and 2 abilities... 1 which very rarely helps the group function better as a group (Form Up), and the other one actually hurting the group if used. I'd say these skills and bonuses help the squad... 2% of the time.
Ranged Defense Bonuses, Rally and Retreat: Ranged Defense Bonuses stack on top of player's bonuses. This is very useful, as there are many factors which affect ranged weapons accuracy (target's bonuses, distance, weapon modifiers and movement). Unlike melee defenses, a melee user does receive noticeable defense when charging a gun user, getting hit 15% less times, gun users stack this on top of their own defenses, making them be rather hard to hit. Rally increases chances to hit, and unlike its Steady Aim counterpart, does last long enough for it to improve a squad's performance in a noticable manner. This is especially true in long range engagements. Retreat gives the whole group a free burst run while leaving the SL stranded. A situational ability that, while rarely used, does give the whole squad a noticable improvement in its effectiveness as a squad.
Thats 14 skill points to get defense bonuses that benefit the entire squad in a noticable manner, and 2 abilities that do increase a squad's effectiveness in a noticable manner. I'd say this skill tree helps the squad 90% of times (mostly the ranged defense bonus and rally).
Master Squad Leader: Gives +10 burst run and +10 terrain negotiation (both giving the squad no noticable improvement) and +5 ranged and +5 melee defenses (not an improvement worth mentioning). For 1 skill point, this box is perhaps worth taking only for the title it grants.
My say in the squad leader's issues is this: It does not improve a squad's performance by much and there are no tools to make a squad be a cohesive fighting unit. Furthermore, the squad leader's abilities and tools are not geared towards leading a group, but rather towards giving the group some minor bonuses.
Suggestions:
-Make Volley Fire 'put' the following macro into all the squad member's combat queue window:
/clear (clears any queued combat actions player had)
/target squad leader
/assist
/overchargeshot
(this makes the SL actually direct others in squad to switch to a target AND do significant damage to it in first round and then keep at it)
-Rally and Steady Aim overlap in their effect. Make Steady Aim give a 4-round duration 'aim' to group. For example, if target is -40 on accuracy indicator, the player uses his own aim command, becoming -20 ..squad leader uses Steady Aim, making it 0.
-Put all melee and ranged bonuses in 1 skill tree (Tactics). Replace the melee defenses now found in Leadership with other bonuses.. like +25% firing/swing speed (cap at 1.5secs) and +25% group decrease in HAM costs from abilities/attacks OR +50% mind regen rate (making SL the only char that can 'heal' this ham bar..in a manner of speaking).
-Change all terrain bonuses in scout's exploration1 to master scout. As it is now the terrain is a joke to consider during combat since everyone just zips around it in quakish abandon. If terrain neg. is master scout only, the rest of the classes will either have to fight using terrain, or find a squad leader for that bonus. And of course, lower the squad leader's terrain bonuses to max out at +15 (to prevent groups with squad leaders just run around at massively superior speeds than normal player, it would lead to griefing and total dependency on having an SL in a group.. with +15 terrain neg, a squad with an SL can go up and down hills 1/3rd faster than someone with 0 terrain negotiation). Incidentally, this will also change how pvp battles and how all players use terrain.. it will change it so that the terrain actually is a factor in the game, not just pretty scenery to quake-run-around'n'-shoot fest place.
Master Squad Leader:
Add Formations to the master squad leader box. Formations would give members in said formation certain bonuses and penalties.
-Wedge : A 'Vee' formation, gives +5 ranged weapon accuracy, +10 melee defense. This would be the standard 'traveling' formation.
-Single File: A 'column' formation, group members fall behind each other, with 5m separation. This formation gives +10 terrain negotiation, +10 ranged defense, -10 melee defense. This formation would be useful for groups moving through territory littered with hostiles that use guns (aka, stormtroopers, other players).
-Diamond: Puts players in a diamond formation, group receives +10 melee and +10 ranged defense, but suffer -15 terrain negotiation. Good for defensive situations.
-InLine: Puts group side by side 5m apart from each other. Group receives -10 ranged defense, +20 melee defense, +10 ranged accuracy +10 ranged weapon firing speed.
NOTE: Formations are tied to autofollow. If squad member is not autofollowing squad leader, then groupmember will not enter that formation. This prevents 'puppetting'.
Also, Master Squad Leader should give the SL the ability to create 'sub-groups'..these subgroups can then be given specific SL abilities depending on their needs (aka, At-ST comes at them, select subgroup that has commandos, issue volley fire, getting the commando's attention to the AT-ST, which they then would very likely start hitting with rocket launchers).
On Puppeteering:
Seeing your report to the devs and what i've seen in the forums, people worry about an SL using PC's as their own pets. I believe this comes from a rather uninformed view of how 'puppetting' could be implemented in the SL's abilities without it griefing players.
To start with, a SQUAD LEADER class needs to have certain commands that should allow the leader to 'puppet' the group's characters. This is needed because the Squad Leader's role and duties are to make a group composed of 2 or more individuals function, fight, survive and move as one.
Every class in the game has a certain role to play during combat. Medics heal, melee classes deliver heavy damage quickly, gun users deliver damage from range, elite proffessions can add other utilities to a group.. such as pets to tank, heavy weapons to take down certain targets a group can't take down safely otherwise, etc etc.
However, during combat, each of these classes requires the player to concentrate most of his attention on delivering said damage, on keeping an eye on health bars of group to be able to heal when needed, before it is too late.. and its because of this that the squad does not function as a group but rather as individuals that try to accomplish a common goal. This leaves a big gap in something called Situational Awareness.
Situational Awareness is an individual's awareness of what goes around in 'the big picture'. In short, what is happening around him and to others around him, not just what happens to him.
i'll point to Dathomir as a good example of this. Grab a group, even a group of guildies or friends. Go out, hunt baz. This time though, go as an observer. Dont fight, dont heal, dont help. Just WATCH what people do on their own when they are in a group.
Even in the best groups, where you have friends and people who know how to hunt together (tapping nest, killing baz first, using pets to hold aggro while group shoots the baz,etc), there are always moments of what i call 'group chaos'. In this best of groups, a baz can pop in the middle of the group and start biting away at someone... and thanks to the way the game's interface is set, sometimes the size of the CH's pets doesn't let people see what goes on around them.. sometimes people are too concentrated on their combat queue rather than their groupmate's health bars or radar... those 'sometime' situations happen constantly even in these 'best of groups'. And it gets worse the bigger the group is. The Situational Awareness of each group member is vastly diminished as each person concentrates on what they are doing (fighting,healing, trying to run away from aggro).
And thats where the squad leader's role steps in. To direct, to be the one who keeps an eye on what is happening TO THE GROUP (not just to himself), to be the one that has the tools to be able to counter those 'group chaos' situations. To be the one who'se role and duty is to maintain Situational Awareness, to be the one that identifies and reacts to counter these 'group chaos' situations.
That is why the squad leader needs these few 'puppeteering' abilities, like the volley fire firing 1 round of overcharge shot AND switching group's target to the SL's target.. because the SL issued that order for a reason: That target is the most dangerous to the group or to a group member and has to be given priority... otherwise the group may suffer casualties.
And all this is due to the fact that if the squad leader cannot do this, there will be no point or purpose for a squad leader to keep situational awareness or identify threats...since he cannot do nothing to react to them.
Lets imagine for a second that the SL suddenly got a working volley fire that does high damage to a target, but that relies on the squad leader issuing the order and waiting for the group members to 'accept' the order:
Squad Leader issues the Volley Fire and waits for the squad members to NOTICE the order (which in the middle of a fight is extremely easy to miss) and then react to that order (decide yes/no to follow order, then move mouse across screen to click on attack commands or change targets or click or press a key to 'accept' the order)
Because by the time that happens, it will be too late. Reaction Time is a NEGATIVE factor that a Squad Leader should be able to eliminate by using the 'puppeteering' abilities. The Squad Leader should be able to skip over those potentially fatal 3 to 6 seconds (2 to 3 attack rounds) that *EACH* individual group member would take to 'accept' a squad leader order and do it. A baz can kill the group's medic in that time, an enemy faction player can close in to flamethrower range and light up the whole squad.
Well, this is a bit long, but its my take.
There is a lot about what you have wrote about the state of the profession that I agree with, but your solutions are not workable or desireable IMO...
And thats where the squad leader's role steps in. To direct, to be the one who keeps an eye on what is happening TO THE GROUP (not just to himself), to be the one that has the tools to be able to counter those 'group chaos' situations. To be the one who'se role and duty is to maintain Situational Awareness, to be the one that identifies and reacts to counter these 'group chaos' situations.
The larger the group, the harder it is for one person to have "situational awareness." Everyone has a role, and they need to be aware of their responsibilies. If there is an "add" everyone who notices it, needs to /gsay "add." Then the person in charge of Crowd Control (CC) takes care of the problem. You severly limit a groups ability to survive adds if you limit the person looking for adds to the SL. If you were to assign anyone to this responsibility,it should be CC. Thats his job.
That is why the squad leader needs these few 'puppeteering' abilities, like the volley fire firing 1 round of overcharge shot AND switching group's target to the SL's target.. because the SL issued that order for a reason: That target is the most dangerous to the group or to a group member and has to be given priority... otherwise the group may suffer casualties.
The person responsible for identifying the most dangerous person to fight is the Main Tank. The person who can handle the agro. If you use VF, then someone other then the MT (who will likely be a melee) will agro the mob, and if they are our main healer, they will likely die which can easilykill the entire group. Furthermore, VF does not kill, distract, or stopmobs. So its all downside and no upside. Itis worse then useless, its is dangerous to the well being of the group. Right now the game is Noob Wars. Mobs dont really have intelligent agro nor are they particularly tough. They generally just go after whomever is closest to them.If mobsever become more intelligent thenlemmings, then agro management will become very important and the worthlessness of the entire VF concept would become self evident.
And all this is due to the fact that if the squad leader cannot do this, there will be no point or purpose for a squad leader to keep situational awareness or identify threats...since he cannot do nothing to react to them.
If CCis the role you enjoy playing in a group then you shouldfocus on developing thoseabilities. That way you can do something about the threats you identify. That is certainly more efficient then identifying the problem and then instructing someone else to deal with it. Acting as CC is a good role for a leader to play, but its not the only group role. There are a lot of good CC people who are not good Leaders. As already stated, VF is not a form of CC.
Lets imagine for a second that the SL suddenly got a working volley fire that does high damage to a target, but that relies on the squad leader issuing the order and waiting for the group members to 'accept' the order:
Because by the time that happens, it will be too late. Reaction Time is a NEGATIVE factor that a Squad Leader should be able to eliminate by using the 'puppeteering' abilities. The Squad Leader should be able to skip over those potentially fatal 3 to 6 seconds (2 to 3 attack rounds) that *EACH* individual group member would take to 'accept' a squad leader order and do it. A baz can kill the group's medic in that time, an enemy faction player can close in to flamethrower range and light up the whole squad.
I agree with this to some extent. The 'accept' order only makes things worse. The best solution is to have someone distract the adds, or tank it and have everyone else /assist them. Not that /assist works for beans in this game, but I am hoping they fix it some day.
Most ofyour post is prettygood, I just think VF and pupeteering are bad. Just because the game is full of noobs, doesn't mean we should compensate bydumbing downthe entire gamewith Pupeteering Skills...
An other problem with volley fire....
I've seen that overchargeshot lower the conditions of the weapon, sometimes by 2 by overchargeshot.
I know that using an overcharge shot is very useful during "chaos combat" as i used lot of volley fire but didn't work so well because: its too weak (an overcharge shot will be better) and only group members who are attacking engage with the volley fire.
Angurius wrote:
An other problem with volley fire....
I've seen that overchargeshot lower the conditions of the weapon, sometimes by 2 by overchargeshot.
I know that using an overcharge shot is very useful during "chaos combat" as i used lot of volley fire but didn't work so well because: its too weak (an overcharge shot will be better) and only group members who are attacking engage with the volley fire.
Dont use overcharge unless you have to, use Kip Up shot or Disarming shot if you have it. Most times they do more dammage and cause little dammage to your gun.
Again with wanting to be a puppet master? I have never seen any game where you needed to control some other charcter directly to be a effective leader. Leadership comes from within and does not involve the taking over of someones charcter. Actually I think some of what you say has meritt, just get off the "if I cant force them to do it now I am a nothing" mentality. It isnt needed. There are much better ways to handle your obvious short commings when dealing with Baz Nitches, really you need to learn the game better I would guess if the only way you feel you can be a Squad Leader it to temporarily take control of someone.
And has something changed? I will admit it has been along time but the last time I used /assist and then tried a special it told me I could not do that to my current target, which had not changed from my groupmate even though I started attacking his target. If this had not changed your whold puppet command string is usless anyway.
**edit** is a CC?
btw I quite like everything about subgroups etc, just not the formations...... u may give the several groups defences (wich u can choose, for example give everyone in group E no modifiers and put all the modifiers into A (Brawlers) and B (Medics)..............
by the way, the only puppeteering skill allowed for me would be, change target/innitiate attack......
this brings some problems with Creature Handlers and Medics tho.... but that can be solved by dividing into groups and using the command only for certain groups...
but being able to innitiate attack yourself is really helpfull cause most of the time when someone starts attacking we all TAB and attack and we all got different Baz Nitches all over us 
I know for attacking my attack is liked with:
/sys ATTACK %TT
/attack
this helps my squad alot or so I like to think. but I got that from the fourm and I thinkit is really cool.
CC = Crowd Control. In SWG most times this is done by either having a pet tank an ADD or by the use of /Warningshot.
For all SL I -HIGHLY- recommend making a macro and hotkey for the following macros (or something like them).
1) <name> Add - ME CC
/sys Add %TT! I'm going to try to scare it away!
/warningshot
/peace
2) <name> Add - CH CC
/sys Add %TT! Stay on target while -insert_name_of_player_here- Sicsthierpet on it
You can easily change the 2nd macro to add the players name every time. These really help quite a bitwhen leading groups.
/clear (clears any queued combat actions player had)
/target squad leader
/assist
/overchargeshot"
What if some of the people in the group don't have overcharge shot?
Why bother communicating with a squad at all when you can just make them do what you want?
SL does need a lot more, but what it needs are ways to actively enhance your group, not control it. Controling and organization should always be a matter of player interaction. If you don't want to interact with people and deal with the occasional n00b, don't be a SL. Or play multiplayer games, for that matter.
Jynn Asaeba
Tactician