Squad Leader Archive
Thread: SLs: You choose who leads! **SL MUST BE LEADER**
I will choose a player who I know is honest, fair, and responsible to fill the roll of group leader/administrator, and I will choose a player who has knowledge of the dungeon/mobs at hand and who understand how the game works to take on the job ofinstructing the group on how to best accomplish the task at hand. If there are any Squad Leaders in the group, I will let them trigger their abilities, whichare supposed to represent their character telling the other characters in the squad specific combat details that are below the scope of what can be representedfully in the gameworld.
Gee-Ro wrote:
What will you choose?
I will choose a player who I know is honest, fair, and responsible to fill the roll of group leader/administrator, and I will choose a player who has knowledge of the dungeon/mobs at hand and who understand how the game works to take on the job ofinstructing the group on how to best accomplish the task at hand. If there are any Squad Leaders in the group, I will let them trigger their abilities, whichare supposed to represent their character telling the other characters in the squad specific combat details that are below the scope of what can be representedfully in the gameworld.
Now, i've heard that from you more than once, but it actually does nottouch the topic which is discussed here. We all know that there are people who don't have the profession in their build, who still can know very well what to do and can direct operations. I do the very same when i get into places i've never been before, i am the group leader, but if possible take somebody with knowledge of the area along to give necessary information.
I am also aware, that there can be people, and with the revamp comming, there certainly will be many of them, who grinded the profession but have no idea on how to actually lead.
But while i agree with your statement in both aspects, i also dare to say that this is a philosophical discussion about abilities of players behind the character and doesn't concern the workability of the profession at all. For me, the fact counts that as long as two SLs can give commands, especially if they are able to cancel out each others buffs or apply contradicting buffs (actually it's even worse if they don't cancel each other out), every John-Doe who spent some time just grind a small part of the profession has the potential to bring seriour turmoil to any team he joins and ruin any efficiency.
That's not unique to squad leaders, though. Any combat proffession can do actions that hamper the entire group, such as using AOE attacks at the wrong time and thus drawing the aggro of too many mobs, or a player who pushes a control panel when he shouldn't and causes too many mobs to spawn, or a player who floods group chat with nonsense and makes it hard for other players to see important messages, or a player who ninja loots, or a player who trash talks others and makes the whole group look bad. We've all had to deal with the above things, and we've all learned that the best way to handle them is to make sure that you pick a group leader/administrator who has the real world traits of being honest, fair, and responsible, so that when an unrulely player pops up he can kick him from the group. The point I was trying to make in my original post, is that forcing squad leaders to also be the group leader/administrator will make it harder for players to deal with idiots, since we'll often be forced to choose between having a good group leader or having a squad leader in the group. Sometimes the most qualified group leader will also be a squad leader, in which case it won't be a problem, but its just as likely that the most qualified group leader won't be a squad leader. In a worst case scenario, the squad leader that just asked to join your group might turn out to be an idiot, and if you've already tranferred group leadership to him, because its the only way for his character to be played, then you'll be SOL.
Sylow wrote:
I will choose a player who I know is honest, fair, and responsible to fill the roll of group leader/administrator, and I will choose a player who has knowledge of the dungeon/mobs at hand and who understand how the game works to take on the job ofinstructing the group on how to best accomplish the task at hand. If there are any Squad Leaders in the group, I will let them trigger their abilities, whichare supposed to represent their character telling the other characters in the squad specific combat details that are below the scope of what can be representedfully in the gameworld.
Now, i've heard that from you more than once, but it actually does nottouch the topic which is discussed here. We all know that there are people who don't have the profession in their build, who still can know very well what to do and can direct operations. I do the very same when i get into places i've never been before, i am the group leader, but if possible take somebody with knowledge of the area along to give necessary information.
I am also aware, that there can be people, and with the revamp comming, there certainly will be many of them, who grinded the profession but have no idea on how to actually lead.
But while i agree with your statement in both aspects, i also dare to say that this is a philosophical discussion about abilities of players behind the character and doesn't concern the workability of the profession at all. For me, the fact counts that as long as two SLs can give commands, especially if they are able to cancel out each others buffs or apply contradicting buffs (actually it's even worse if they don't cancel each other out), every John-Doe who spent some time just grind a small part of the profession has the potential to bring seriour turmoil to any team he joins and ruin any efficiency.
Imaridril wrote:
That's not unique to squad leaders, though. (a)
...
The point I was trying to make in my original post, is that forcing squad leaders to also be the group leader/administrator will make it harder for players to deal with idiots, (b)
since we'll often be forced to choose between having a good group leader or having a squad leader in the group.
(a) I have to object that statement. It is different for a squad leader since up till know everybody who I met expected me to lead the group, since thats what our profession should do. LEAD ppl, when your commando messes up that everything went down because he didnt an area attack, he is an idiot, but when a SL mess up you expect him to know it better, because he should lead and know it better
(b) Again I dont see the problem with limiting it to the groupleader. In my early days as Novice squad leaders I often asked to be groupleader since it was the only way to earn exp, but said them also Im not experienced enough to realy lead, so have another profession lead the raid party (20pp in PvP eg.), where he told me what to do when (formup retreat to chase, call diretcion and use the Sys msg and what to say.
Your argument works in both directions.
What I wanted to state out again, is that currently two different things are going to be mixed up in the not ending discussion.
(alpha) the need of the SL to be groupleader
as well
(beta) having mutliple squad leaders in one group.
These are related issues but not the same. Personally I dont like both.
(b) The idiots already play the alpha class and have gotten al other profession nerfed, now lets try to avoid that they do that to us, so lets make this profession challenging to play. Not just a I WIN button, but something where you have to use your grey mass between your ears to make it usefull.
The point I was trying to make in my original post, is that forcing squad leaders to also be the group leader/administrator will make it harder for players to deal with idiots, since we'll often be forced to choose between having a good group leader or having a squad leader in the group. Sometimes the most qualified group leader will also be a squad leader, in which case it won't be a problem, but its just as likely that the most qualified group leader won't be a squad leader. In a worst case scenario, the squad leader that just asked to join your group might turn out to be an idiot, and if you've already tranferred group leadership to him, because its the only way for his character to be played, then you'll be SOL.
A good SL will inform himself on what he's getting into. Sure, in grind groups, you run the risk of having a random incompetent SL in team, but that's EXACTLY the reason why we want the SL abilities to be useable only by the group leader. This way you have one person, who is assigned on the task, to do the stuff and can't be messed with by a random other person. If anybody in team can use SL abilities just any way he likes, he can create much more trouble.
Also, the new SL abilities have much influence on what tactics to use. Theynow also have downsides, not only advantages any more, like in the old system. In the old system, the only thing which was contraproductive was steady aim, and this only due to a coding / conceptional flaw and not intended by the game, the new group buffs intenionally have advantages and disadvantages built into them. If they are applied by a random person, this risk is incredibly higher.
And if the groupleader you just got is the mentioned idiot, you leave the group and form it anew with him as pure firepower. If groupleader position is not required, you can have 7 idiots with SL in team which can bust you any moment.
Anyways, my personal primary concern for limiting SL to the group leader still is balance. I am still worried that if everybody in team can give buffs, they can be combined to stronly overpowered effects and the SL will very soon get painfully nerfed again. (Never underestimate the locust-style behaviour of the exploiter...)
And i would hate it, if SL would in the end be a pure dabble-a-tiny-bit-in profession for everybody to give a little bit of buffing. And in the end, to think it over, when did you see the last master pistoleer? It's been ages with me at least, still i see one line of pistoleer in a massive percentage of characters i meet. (When going for tougher fights, i sometimes ask my team what skills they have. Pistoleer root is very common...) I don't want the SL to go down the same way.
Imaridril wrote:
I will choose a player who I know is honest, fair, and responsible to fill the roll of group leader/administrator, and I will choose a player who has knowledge of the dungeon/mobs at hand and who understand how the game works to take on the job ofinstructing the group on how to best accomplish the task at hand. If there are any Squad Leaders in the group, I will let them trigger their abilities, whichare supposed to represent their character telling the other characters in the squad specific combat details that are below the scope of what can be representedfully in the gameworld.
Gee-Ro wrote:
What will you choose?
Here, let me adjust your bard outfit. DO you use a bugle or a trumpet to give your buffs to the group? I prefer a harp myself.
Gee-Ro wrote:
I don't frequent the boards much, but I've been MSL on Tarq since launch and stayed with it. I agree with those that say we should have to be leader in order for our specials to work. If this doesn't happen, I say this- YOU CHOOSE HOW TO PLAY SL!!!
I will choose only to group with others as the groupleader. What will you choose?
Devil's advocate here Gee.
You have played in a group with Zal, and you know what kind of player he (ie me) is. Zal is also a MSL.
Now don't you think it would be to the groups advantage to have someone like himsupporting you. Someone who knows the SLs abilities and can understand you reason for what you need the groupto do. Someone who can analyze the situation and help in the heat of battle with a subset of buffs (yes, some should be reserved for the GL)? When the enemy is engaged, things can get pretty hectic as you know. In fact Zal's template of MD/MSL is perfect for this type of support role since being a Doc,he's looking after the party already, and not directly engaged in combat.(unless forced to). just the 2 aggrocentic buffs would help keep him healing and not sent to the cloners.
Gee-Ro wrote:
I don't frequent the boards much, but I've been MSL on Tarq since launch and stayed with it. I agree with those that say we should have to be leader in order for our specials to work. If this doesn't happen, I say this- YOU CHOOSE HOW TO PLAY SL!!!
I will choose only to group with others as the groupleader. What will you choose?
Devil's advocate here Gee.
You have played in a group with Zal, and you know what kind of player he (ie me) is. Zal is also a MSL.
Now don't you think it would be to the groups advantage to have someone like himsupporting you. Someone who knows the SLs abilities and can understand you reason for what you need the groupto do. Someone who can analyze the situation and help in the heat of battle with a subset of buffs (yes, some should be reserved for the GL)? When the enemy is engaged, things can get pretty hectic as you know. In fact Zal's template of MD/MSL is perfect for this type of support role since being a Doc,he's looking after the party already, and not directly engaged in combat.(unless forced to). just the 2 aggrocentic buffs would help keep him healing and not sent to the cloners.