Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leader: Revamp on Test Center
Kindarin wrote:
Don't know if this helps ease anyone, but from what I've just heard system messages can only be sent by the SL in the Group Leader position.
At least we know the Dev team thought about that one, lol.
Or did they think?
These are the Devs we're talking about. 
Message Edited by AlienEntity on 09-05-2005 12:26 AM
Basically, I see the role of a squad leader as being quite different from that of a group leader. If you want to have ultimate control over your group you would be both, but I don't see that as being the same thing as leadership in a "squad leader" sense; at least in my mind. In light of this, I feel like a decision to force a squad leader to also be the *group* leader would only be necessary if the mechanics of the implementation of the new skills made this the only logical arrangement.
I would agree that some of the skills are pretty borderline on this; conflicting /sys messages, differing painted targets, and contradictory use of other specials by multiple SL's are all solid justification for an "only 1 SL" rule. However, I don't really believe that such problems necessarily force the hand here. There is a very simple, no-coding-necessary solution to all of these problems... If you want to be the "dictatorial" sort of SL, then by all means, form a group and don't allow any other SLs in. Or, you can let them in, explain that you wish to be the only one controlling whichever specific aspects and skills that you want, and kick anyone out that fails to play by your rules.
Yes, problems can and will arise with inexperienced SL's misusing skills or contradicting the primary leader, and the effects of those mixups would be multiplied in high-end situations like PvP battles or Necrosis/DWB/whatever. But, do you really want to do much high end stuff with a random group of people that you don't know anyway? I can see lots of potential for a group containing multiple SL's that know each other quite well really clicking on all cylinders, with each SL benefitting a specific aspect of the group function. Yes there would be a chain of command, but I don't really feel that a game mechanic to enforce it would be necessary.
In my opinion, the real problem that I see here comes from the potential of having stacked SL buffs be overpowering in the de-facto state of the game. That is certainly an area of concern, and would have to be balanced very carefully. There also clearly needs to be a working "radius of effect" to prevent a player from grouping with multiple SL's and then going out soloing with the benefits.
I realize that my opinion seems to differ from the norm here (Kindarin's posts ring quite true with my thoughts), and I certainly don't mean any direspect to the SL community. You guys deserve the attention, and I hope that the final version of whatever the devs roll out makes you quite pleased!
Ackehece wrote:
...
yet again with out a single consolidated leader (with the ability to remove those who don't follow commands) you have a mess that can be made worse with the massive ability to grief inherent in the new commands.- adding aggro to players
- removing all their action and mind pool
- lowering their defence while increasing offensive power and vice versa
all of which can and will lead to death on the battle field if there is no undisputed chain of command and the hammer that goes with that chain has to be the ability to remove players who do not follow direction. If you are a bad SL sure it sucks and you will never play your character but in that case you probably should not have picked sl in the first place - you are not a natural leader and people would not follow you. Most SLs picked the profession because they are leaders and want to make a difference not because they want to be a buff bot in the corner of a cantina.
Just to go along with my above post, I'd argue that all of those problems exist whether the SL in question is the leader of the group or not. Heck, it could even be an argument for forcing the SL to *not* be the group leader, so that they could be kicked if they are being abusive with their commands, lol.
I agree 100% that SL's hanging out in towns or cantinas away from their group as a buffbot would be a disaster. This is why it would be crucial for there to be a radius of effectiveness. I remember that back when I was dabbling in SL most of the passive benefits worked even with separation across the galaxy, and I can show my ignorance by stating that I don't know if that is still the case. It certainly would need to be fixed to maintain balance and prevent AFK city-dwelling SL abuse.
LecheHombre wrote: (a)
...
Just to go along with my above post, I'd argue that all of those problems exist whether the SL in question is the leader of the group or not... (b)
100% that SL's hanging out in towns or cantinas away from their group as a buffbot would be a disaster. This is why it would be crucial for there to be a radius of effectiveness. (c)
I remember that back when I was dabbling in SL most of the passive benefits worked even with separation across the galaxy, (d)
(a) welcome aboard LecheHombre, I hope you know your landing in a hot zone
.(b) Kindarins post is very close to a compromise, just as sylows post, although I dont not like the groupoptions toggle. It just makes the game unplayable. Also somebody stated there should be a /ignorecommand button to ignore a command of a squad leader, I would not like that either, because as this is a roleplaying game where we mimic parts of reality that doesnt make sense. Btw there is already a /ignorecommand and its leave the group
. I stated it at some posts already that in fact in this discussion if the squad leader should be groupleader there are 5 different issues within wich can be looked upon independtly from each other but easily interact with each other
- Should the squad leader be the groupleader?
This isnt not crucial when there is only one leader in the group and the squad leader community is not worried about having this limitation removed, though this was one of the unique features/burdes/responsibities the squad leader profession had.
You wanted to play /roleplay a leader (opposed to the powergamers who just try to increase their own uberness), so you had to lead. Even if this meant just being responsibil for invite and kick while letting the experienced guide and command you, with the squad leader just being his support communication officer using /sys or the buffer in the appropriate combat situation. - How many squad leaders do you want to allow in a group?
Question says it all. How many LEADERs do you need in ONE group? What does the allowance of multiple squad leaders do to the game(overstacking, powergaming, abusing, griefing).
Shouldnt the game mechanics encourage each squad leader to take a own group rather than having all squad leader in one group? The solely possibilitiy of having more than one squad leader is opposed to the initial concept of a squad leader. Still how many do you want? Two three 8 ? One ? - Depending on how many squad leaders, what will be the chain of command?
Allowing more squad leader in one group, how do you distinguis between them? What is the chain of command? Why not use the already existing game mechanic of being group leader to seperate between first and second squad leader? If you want to allow more how would you further seperate them? - How do you want to avoid abuse/overstacking/griefing?
In the worst case you have 8 SL dabblers each with a seperate effect lasting 10 to 20 minutes (as everybody now has 4000 CM and with the current values of the buffs will be pretty much overpowerd. Read sylows comments on this, if you have good single buffs, all of them will be unbalanced, if you reduce them because you might have all of them a single one isnt worth anything anymore makeing the squad leader profession just a dabbler profession, like the pistoleer. - What is the direction of the Squad leader revamp as well as where is the leadership in a game when leadership can NOT be earned by skill boxes.
Leadership can not be earned or aquired by skill boxes, the old time forum squad leaders know this very very well and we havent forgotten this in this discussion since its always in hour head. We all had to aquire these within the game, or in RL.
Encouraging squad leaders to group with each other rather than taking a leading position is not what this professin was about.
This profession is named squad leaders, ppl who pick this possion would like to lead ppl, if they can or not. Now if they not cant, since this is ability is not within the skill boxes, what should the skills and abilities in the skill boxes do ? They should point out the player to what a squad leader (IRL or here in the game) should do. Lead.
He should aquire skills, that put him in the position to decided as leader for the whole group, take the responsibility and carry the burder and honor of leadership. He should NOT be encouraged to hide between 7 other squad leader just buffing his group.
Many ppl initially pick squad leader because they want to be leaders, so let them lead.
He wanted to see/feel/play/experience what it is to be a squad leader, again so let him lead and let him experience what it is.
You dont give somebody who ask for chocolate ice, strawberry just because its ice too.
(c) Very much needed as wel a limit on the duration (as they are 10 to 20 minutes now on test center). The squad leader community has asked in their numerous proposal for high short term buffs they can apply in the heat of the every changing battle not long term buff they can toggle on and off and leave them be.
(d) with the CU almost all active abilities have a range limited to 128m and only last for a maximun of 45 seconds (rally), as well as they only worked on player characters (vollyfire works on the target and for pets and NPCs in the group but it effects influence the target not the groupmembers).
Message Edited by _scout_ on 09-06-2005 12:02 PM
Congratulations guy! This is LONG overdue. I may find myself comming back to my true profession now.
Lets not forget our neglectedRanger brothers! After this revamp, please pitch a few words for them!
If you want to be the "dictatorial" sort of SL, then by all means, form a group and don't allow any other SLs in. Or, you can let them in, explain that you wish to be the only one controlling whichever specific aspects and skills that you want, and kick anyone out that fails to play by your rules.
You don't need to be a dictator, you just need to want your team to work well, to prefer the one-decission-maker approach. There are not 20 minutes breaks during a PvP baseraid where you can discuss your further tactics. And experience has shown, it's better if one person commands, even if his tactical skills are only mediocre, than if several brilliant tacticians give severalingenious but contradicting orders.
Additionally, limiting your own team to one SL doesn't prevent the other side to bring in a team with all SL buffs (except perhaps charge and retreat, as they have some downside) on them to wallop you down with buff-enhanced power.
Quick question
How istaking a previously passive ability and changing itto an active, command prompt ability make it "easier to use" as proposed by the developers? Am I missing something or are they double talking here?
Shamonue wrote:
/cheer!!!
But on a more sour note. Does anyone else wish they'd lock anyone new from joining our profession?
It just feels not fair that people can just join the prof and grind it now that it's gonna be good, which will leave us SL's who've waited years for this and patiently stood by the profession through al the brokenness in the dust of the mad SL rush,b being forced to answer all the newbie SL questions.
/sigh
I don't mind the love,but I do hate that we'll end up being the new profession that everyone rushes to(like BH's during the respec period,being mobbed by newbie m-bh's,or in our case m-sl's, with questions that anyone with the Master Title should know).
Message Edited by Shamonue on 09-03-2005 03:49 AM
Hey man, as a per-CU MBH, all I can say is I don't envy you guys, at least there won't be too many respec MSLs
When my guildie hinted at a post on Test Center, that the SL profession was getting revamped, I hurried to open the forum pages and was aghasted at what the changes would do to my play style. I am saddened by the lost of all our knowned skills (they will never work the way they did before in my eyes) I have played about 12 different combat professions since the Combat Downgrade and I am not too happy with any of their performances! I am currently a MRifles/MSL as I was before the CD.....
But after having some time to think about these changes, and the way the game is now. Some of these skills will help the groups i hunt with a lot. Having multiple SL's in the group will definitely make a world of difference, without the sarcasm, the game's combat AI is nothing like i have ever played with before. I have seen Ping Pong action all over the place, I have seen awful core system failures pertaining to missions where most of us want to shine. .... I feel they are implementing some of these group mechanics to make their AI failures less noticable....so they can work on the next 25 expansions instead of making it a Combat Upgrade..
I sit here today, thinking about the laundry list of changes that they are forcing upon the SL community (as a fix), and wondering will I ever use half of these new skills since they are based on timers and can only use 1 at a time! Will I need, in a time of a group emergency, a skill which I can't use because i used something else 4 minutes ago?
As for the narrow minded SLs, You are not a leader because you spent the skill points, Your Piers that accept and look to you to lead them into battle as a leader! You don't need to be the one who invites or disbands, You should be thinking about where your leading! Your piers will know if someone is not welcome or messes things up.
Its not about US vs them.. its a joint effort. Multiple SLs/dabblers will bring more fun and adventure aslong as everyone is on the same page. That's being a leader. Don't make SOE put safe guards in place because of True Leadership errors. They are not our parents.. they take our money like our parents but they aren't!... If you feel things aren't going the way they should. STop and think, are you right for that group of people.... its the same commitment to stay as it is to leave!
All this talk about conflicting /sysmessages and shouting commands, is cloud cover for other shortcomings. You form the group, you don't mystically appear in front of a rebel base the moment you achieve full group status. Talk among yourself, make plans, people who play this profession are gonna be asking the same question,,, what is my role in this group? One must take charge and everyone must accept... not loyally. But for things to work.... The world works on compromises... its a win-win situation!
So I ask everyone here this, why should SOE put in countermeasures for human error? Because that's most of what the posts are about in this thread.. SOE is giving us a new toolset to play with, were not stupid enough to cut our own arm off when we have time to think things through.
Perill Retired SL - Full Time Jedi
Peril Master Rifleswoman/Master SquadLeader
(I was at first weary about these changes to the point to go to rifles/smuggler but I think now that if everything ACTUALLY works.... we may have something worth saying were an SL)
Perill/Pearly Bluee