Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Official : Informing the Dev's of Our Thoughts on the New Abilities
Anstrona wrote:
I am completely satisfied with most of the commands they have proposed.If you say these new commands are crap, obviously you've never raided in Everquest before, and apparently you don't know what a squad leader is and is supposed to be.Here are some of the highlights of a typical raid that are relevant to the commands they proposed.
Rubbish. I have lead raids all over EQ including the planes and ToV and am probably the most vocal opponent to the changes. Please read the official resonse to the SL upgrades at top.
You've got people showing up for the raid late...which makes the ones who showed up on time get bored and go AFK. When everyone is finally present...you now have to wait for the AFK people to come back.
Exactly how dothe new skills help you when people are AFK? Because you can do a raid while half of the team is AFK? Yeah, thats an improvement. /shout "Please show up to my raid. All i need you to do is go afk for a couple hours and I will get you lets of experience."
Then you have situations where 3 or 4 people in the raid decide to be idiots and go off sight seeing or just flat out get lost because they weren't paying attention to where everyone was going.
This does happen all the time for new raiders. Noobs will wipe you out every once in a while and it will piss you off.Of course I usually have someone keep an eye on them so they don't do something that stupid. You just have to train them properly. None of the new skills address this at all, btw.
Then there's the lovely times when people decide to attack something different from what the rest of the group is attacking.
How do the new skills address this? You can focus everyone' firepower on a mob, but you only need to do that if there are mulitple mobs. If there are multiple mobs, you need crowd control. If you have CC hitting the main target, who is the other targets attacking? Hopefully not the healer or its going to be a wipeout. Just use the /assist button. Its a much better option.
And finally you have jerkies who are too busy picking your nose and forget to do things like attack or heal.
Yes, and you boot them from the group. Thats the only thing you need to do. These skills will not force healres to heal (thank goodness). People will have to actually play their character, as it should be.
All of these things are much too common to simply avoid or go somewhere else where it doesn't happen. It happens EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME.
Nonesense. They happen with noobs. If you train a team, you teach them not to do these things, and if they don't get with the program you boot them from the guild and/or group. What kind of events have you lead in EQ? LOIO? ROFL. By the time you get to more challenging events, most of your team are well past the noob level. You have not even brought up key raiding issues like agro control, crowd control, etc., just low level noob ones.
Now with the proposed command additions...you don't have to worry about those things.
Rubish, see above.
Everyone shows up...but some people are AFK..no big deal. /formup;/followme and everyone is in formation and following the leader...the AFK people don't get left behind, you don't wait for them to come back from AFK, and people don't get lost.
Sure until someone gets agro, the healer is afk, and people start dieing. Brilliant idea. Then, what happens when you get to the camp site? Nothing.
Some one isn't paying attention or people are all attacking different things...no problem /ceasefire;/openfire. Now everyone is attacking your target.
Yes, incluidng the healer and crowd control. What raids have you lead in EQ again? I mean lead, not be a follower.
These aren't commands that "turn group members into the SL's pets". These are LEADER COMMANDS. Thats how leaders work...they command, you do what they command. Its not like you can't override the group commands or anything. You can just as easily /peace or change targets on your own...but the proposed SL commands make a group MORE EFFICIENT which is what a squad leader is for, for cryin' out loud. Otherwise to heck with SL's and just let whoever feels like leading be the leader. And for you people who say "well if they're not following orders just disband them" all I can say is that is a lazy cop out. No matter where you go or no matter what you're doing...there's almost always going to be at least 1 person who forgets to do something or gets lost or whatever...these things just happen and kicking them out of the group just proves you're a jerk who thinks they're better than everyone else. Because..YOU never do things like attack the wrong target on accident or fall behind...right? But with the proposed SL commands...if it happens..its the SL's fault for not keeping his troops in line. Frankly, I think that anyone who doesn't like these commands is being an idiot about the subject and probably doesn't belong in the SL profession because they obviously don't get what the profession is all about.
Please just read the official response to the developers at the top of the mb. I am tired or repeating myself.
I am completely satisfied with most of the commands they have proposed.If you say these new commands are crap, obviously you've never raided in Everquest before, and apparently you don't know what a squad leader is and is supposed to be.Here are some of the highlights of a typical raid that are relevant to the commands they proposed.
You've got people showing up for the raid late...which makes the ones who showed up on time get bored and go AFK. When everyone is finally present...you now have to wait for the AFK people to come back.
Then you have situations where 3 or 4 people in the raid decide to be idiots and go off sight seeing or just flat out get lost because they weren't paying attention to where everyone was going.
Then there's the lovely times when people decide to attack something different from what the rest of the group is attacking.
And finally you have jerkies who are too busy picking your nose and forget to do things like attack or heal.
All of these things are much too common to simply avoid or go somewhere else where it doesn't happen. It happens EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME.
Now with the proposed command additions...you don't have to worry about those things.
Everyone shows up...but some people are AFK..no big deal. /formup;/followme and everyone is in formation and following the leader...the AFK people don't get left behind, you don't wait for them to come back from AFK, and people don't get lost.
Some one isn't paying attention or people are all attacking different things...no problem /ceasefire;/openfire. Now everyone is attacking your target.
These aren't commands that "turn group members into the SL's pets". These are LEADER COMMANDS. Thats how leaders work...they command, you do what they command. Its not like you can't override the group commands or anything. You can just as easily /peace or change targets on your own...but the proposed SL commands make a group MORE EFFICIENT which is what a squad leader is for, for cryin' out loud. Otherwise to heck with SL's and just let whoever feels like leading be the leader. And for you people who say "well if they're not following orders just disband them" all I can say is that is a lazy cop out. No matter where you go or no matter what you're doing...there's almost always going to be at least 1 person who forgets to do something or gets lost or whatever...these things just happen and kicking them out of the group just proves you're a jerk who thinks they're better than everyone else. Because..YOU never do things like attack the wrong target on accident or fall behind...right? 
But with the proposed SL commands...if it happens..its the SL's fault for not keeping his troops in line. Frankly, I think that anyone who doesn't like these commands is being an idiot about the subject and probably doesn't belong in the SL profession because they obviously don't get what the profession is all about.
Shuyunh,
I know, the examples aboveare verycontrived and the numbers pristene. I'm just trying to illustrate ways in which a Squad Leader, albiet with assumed bonuses from just from the stances, can be as valuable or even much more valuable to a group than another gun from a Master Bounty Hunter or another Graul from a Master CH.
All my sabre rattling has been based on the value I percieve in the Stances and Position skills proposed. I read about the stances first in this thread: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=3079&page=1I'm still not sure where the info originally came from, or if there is more pertinent info elsewhere. Basically for Stances it says they offer temporary (hopefully not as temp as /rally 
off/def bonuses to groups in different stances.
Those are what I am hoping are the Killer Apps of the new Squad Leader. I'm really hoping these are the "kickass" we get, as DiLune said elsewhere. If I called the shots stance bonuses alone would get their own tree in the class, so Master SL hassignificantly more bonuses than Novice.
If it turns out that stances suck/don't work/ineffective I will be the first to bash the bejebus outta them. At this time we just don't know, and I optimistically reserve judgement, or at lease presume innocence.
In my mind it all comes down to this,in a complex or any significantly sized encounter with a full group would yourather have an additional eye/torsoshot gunner, or another Doc/medic, or another rancor, or a char that gives+5,10,25,50+% attack speed and dmg multiplier(I really hope that's a conservative estimate) for all attacking group members, Plus a defensive buff that lets other Doc/medics survive that much longer, Plus the firepower from whatever gun that SL brings to the fight?
Thanks,
-Psquire, man I really hope these don't suck...
Shuyunh, I can tell you've raided in large groups before in EQ. You have that typical EQ elitist raid guild attitude about you.You give no concern to the issues of time spent playing the game which kinda shows you're a power-gamer. Some people however have to schedule play times for themselves and they probably don't want to waste 10 minutes here and 15 minutes there waiting for people to come back from AFK so their group can continue what they were doing. Whether you've LEAD a raid in EQ though is up for debate. As I said in my posts, the proposed abilities are leadership skills in the sense that they maximize the efficiency of groups without the need for EQ-esque buffs.
In the manner of time efficiency, with the /followme command you can spend time on the move to a location rather than sitting there waiting for some one to come back from AFK. This command also keeps people from getting lost because they're auto-following you. Of course there are small details that would need to be worked out such as getting stuck behind trees and such...but I never said all the commands were perfect as is. If people manually take themselves off of follow in order to sight-see then yes, you're right...the /followme command doesn't help much, which is where group chat, or direct tells come in to give them the location they need to be at. Finally...if all else fails...thats what /disband is for.
In the case of the /openfire command, againthis is a matter of efficiency. In the case of non-aggro mobs it takes away the chance that some one might accidentally target the wrong one (especially with ranged weaponry) and inadvertantly pull another mob in that would have otherwise not aggro'd. In the case of aggro mobs, crowd control is necessary, and that is partially the responsibility of the squad leader. Completely untouched the /openfire command could wreak havoc as is, the addition of a command to designate people into "squads" would alleviate this. A squad leader could then manage 20 people in say 4 groups of 5 or what have you. Similar to the way the raid function worked in EQ by still keeping groups split up into groups.
As far as people just forgetting to do things? This isn't a noob thing...this is a HUMAN thing. People are not without imperfection except maybe you...or so you think. Things happen, people get distracted...with in-game happenings and RL happenings. Your simple solution of "you boot them from the guild / group" definately makes the elitist raid guild snobby jerk off in you shine through. Things can and often do happen, but as a LEADER a squad leader would be able to bring up the slack when things like this do happen. Even if these are simply "noob issues" you also have to take into consideration that SWG has attracted A LOT of people who are brand new to MMO's so your player base is much more newbie than Everquest is/was.
LOIO? I wasn't aware there were any raid events there aside from the portion of the monk epic. Maybe you're confusing your second-rate grouping to kill mobs there with actual raiding. I've lead many, many raids to places like Kael, HoT, ST, Ssra, and old as well as new planes and I have assisted leading 2nd and 3rd tierplanes raids. I've lead enough raids to know that even seasoned players and well-oiled groups still make mistakes...since we're all not perfect like you are.
Your mentioning of /formup;/followme command not working well when you get into a fight and healers are AFK just further strengthens my arguement that these commands DO NOT turn the group members into SL pets. They do however manage time spent playing the game more efficiently. Instead of waiting 10 minutes here and there waiting for various members to come back from AFK...you can spend that time moving to your destination, giving the AFK people time to get back instead of wasting 10 minutes AND THEN spending 10 more minutes moving to your spot.
As far as the /openfire command affecting healing and crowd control...as I said...the ability to form squads within groups would easily fix that problem. In real military a squad is a tactical unit consisting of 4-8 troops anyway, not 20 so it would make sense to split them up anyhow. Squad 1 is main assault, Squad 2 is secondary assault, Squad 3 is medic unit, etc. Same way it works in EQ...which poses the questionhow manyraids have YOU lead, not followed? A real leader would know these things already.
Only a fool or a boy needs to repeat themselves at the expense of others. Which are you? I didn't ask for the treatment you gave me in your post, and I sure won't tollerate it.
Anstrona:
I agree Shuyunh's response to your post was inflammatory. It sounds as though he feels rather strongly on the subject and frequently people think their points are made stronger by raising their voice or gesticulating wildly. This is sometimes the case. Other times people think their points are made stronger by belittling other people. This is rarely the case.
I also see your point of view on the subject.I've played EQ since Prexus was about 3 weeks old. I'd consider myself a hybrid between acasual player and a powergamer, with a lot of xp.My main character is a Shaman and my favorite twink is a Bard. What can I say...I like support classes. Though I pretty much retired from raiding around the time PoP was released, I have a fairly extensive background. Your points about helping keep people who can't devote 100% of their attention to the computer formore than an hour (or so) at a time are good points. It truly would help groups with that type of player remain more organized and functioning .I hadoverlooked that line of thinkingin my ownassesment of the proposedchanges.
However, I have to disagree with you.I am opposed to the new SL abilities because I see their HUGE potential for being abused. Surely you've been witness to the people in EQ who "hotbox" or play "bot" characters on seperate machines? It doesn't take long to realize that this is going to happen in SWG and I'd bet that it already is happening tosome degree. This is a practice that I'm opposed tofor a multitude of reasons. At least in EQ, "hotboxing" required a fair ammount of skill and some creative use of a relativelylimited ability to create helpful macro's.
In SWG; with the more robust macro system,with pets, and droids, and faction-bots at your disposal as a player...that's a potential4 person group for every account. In EQ there were NUMEROUS people playing two accounts. I'vealso known people who play three accounts. If one of those accounts was a SL with the proposed changes implemented, one real-life person would be able to field a group of 8-12 players and be able to (nearly) have total control of them thru one interface. That's pretty absurd in my opinion, but you just KNOW it would happen.
I'm far more in favor of giving the SL a variety of passive abilities as mentioned in MANY other threads on this board. Some form of advanced targeting for the groups is needed imo as well. I've read good suggestions on "painting" targets and "target ques" that the SL would create.
I also like the idea of the SL havingabilities that force the other players to be interactive and follow willingly (and manually)the directions of the SL in order to attain the greatest benefit from his presence. Check out this thread for one example of what I'm talking about:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=4087
I'm no squad leader. But I've been in plenty of groups. We're rushed by half a dozen fierce critters, and I automatically fire with my groupmates to the intended target? Sounds fab to me. As long as I can regain control of my avatar at any time, I don't see any problems with these commands. Your SL spots a medic in the back lines, ora sniper picking off your troops, or any number of immediate threads - can all be dealt with quickly and efficiently. Sounds like a **edit** good idea to me.
And flames are bad, you shouldn't do flames mkay.
Its cool Shuy, I can understand that. I'm sorry if I seemed belligerent but people throwing the term newbie around was always a pet peive of mine in EQ and it has carried over to SWG.
As an example of what I mean by mistakes being a human thing and not just a newbie thing...I'll tell you what I heard yesterday. I cancelled my EQ account about a month after SWG was released so I wasn't present for this but I got the info from my old friends from EQ who still play. I'll leave the names and servers out so they can save face...heh. I'm sure
Anyway, friends of mine who are THE top guild on my old server went after Coirnav the other night, which in case you don't know is the God of water in the 4th tier PoP zones. At random points during the encounter Coirnav spawns groups of 6 level 65ish mobs up to six times throughout the encounter. This is no problem for the guild...they've taken down Xegony and Fennin several times before, they do something very similar. Coirnav is down to about 15% health and he spawns his final group of6 mobs, my friend the shadow knight attempts to throw on harmshield to kite the mobs away from the raid force so they can finish off Coirnav then go on to kill the 6 mobs one at a time...easy enough, they've done it 5 other times during the encounter. Only this time the SK failed to realize that a shaman threw an extra buff on him which put him at his 15 buff limit. His HS was wasted, unable to be recast...the clerics had bestowed DA on him for the other 5 mob group spawns...so all he could do was get beat to death before he realized fully what had happened. Because he died...the entire raid force of 85 people were wiped out in a cascade from clerics on down. Total party wipe-out, with Coirnav standing there with less than 10% health. A newbie mistake? No, a stupid mistake? Yep sure was. Was it anyone's fault? No. Could it have been avoided? Probably not...but it will be in the future. Stupid sh1t can, does and WILL happen...regardless of your skill level. It just happens less when you're skilled working with skilled players.
Ulfr, I know for a fact that people already twobox in SWG. It just happens my 2nd account to be my wife's account instead of 2 accounts of my own that I play when she isnt using hers...but I'm picking up a 2nd account for myself next week :T He'll be a dedicated crafter though not a combat duo. You think 2 or 3 boxing was bad in EQ? I knew a guy who 8-boxed it. I've got a photo of his setup somewhere. 8 screens all with different characters at the login screen..heh.
While I do agree with both you and Shuy that the commands being added into the game completely as is could cause more problems than they're worth. That doesn't mean that with some small details added and changed to them they couldn't be extremely useful and effective. Just like anything else they'd need to be fine-tuned. I think a means of automatically concentrating fire, halting fire, marching in line, and the like are GENIUS ideas. Minor flaws and grief/abuse functionality not withstanding. Ignoring those a means of automatically doing SOME actions would be far more effective than simply spamming an order on your screen and hoping everyone follows it because the entire group might be screwed if they don't. Sure players should have the ability to ignore or belay orders if needbe. But a squad leader having the power to automatically make members of his group switch targets is a far cry from those players keying in special moves and using their own tactics towards the goal of the group. Its not a replacement, its merely a tool. Tools can be used, they can be ignored, they can be used properly, and they can be abused. But fine-tuning them can help cut down on or eliminate all together any abuse or griefing.
Passive commands are great and all...but they provide no real...interactivity to the role of a squad leader. If I'm leading a unit of troops...I want to be in the thick of it giving orders, fighting alongside everyone, observing the entire picture. I just spent 3 years in EQ playing a paladin for cryin' out loud. Paladins were (as of PoP) tanks, secondary assault, crowd control, aggro control, group healing, and backup healing and I'm sure I missed a couple there. If I'm not doing 10 things at once in at fight I'm not happy...and thats kind of how I see squad leaders in this game. They should be the ones being the most active behind the scenes while still participating and being knee deep in the thick of a fight. Just my opinion.
I think that 50% of the new skills are useless, and 50% should be a part of our class. Let's keep things like fireteams, Follow Me, Forced March, and Group Attack that will be useful to our squads. Let's protest against the stupid stuff like Cease Fire and Group Heal that will take up space on our skill tree for no reason.
I guess it must be some superhuman ability for me, to remain moderate in these situations...