Squad Leader Archive

You are right,it wouldn't even come close to making a Novice Pistoleer equal to a Master. They'd be missing AE Knockdown, Stoppingshot,Fanshot, speed, and accuracy,which is whatcurrently defines the Pistoleer Class. Besides, I can'ttell ifthe Pistoleer defenses are even working.

I didn't read all the subsequent posts, so I apologize if I repeat anything.

I love the idea of /march. It works great at the higher levels, but the healing rate factor is a little overpowered and makes scouts and rangers a lot more useless.Tone this down, maybe making the heal rate similar to a low level camp, and without the benefit of med pak usage. Drills is just plain sweet! Possibly also include /R&R on this tree for the ability to heal BF in camp or possibly in march (after Drills is acquired).

Steady Aim seems way too powerful at that level. The level of accuracy and ability to use should go up incrementally with the skill. Steady Aim +10 per box level; +25 at Master. (max's at +65, not to accuracy, but to skill use, accuracy increased at a fixed amount per box, maybe +5, +10 at Master)

HAM Volleys. Ok for Health and Action, but Mind should definately be Master.

Otherwise sounds good, I'd like to see it.

Two problems with the mobility line: I agree that we'd kindof be stealing from scouts here, so how about having a more specific effect? If marchingslowed the natural healing ofred and greendamage (the members of the squad are exerting themselves) whilespeeding upthe rate of healing on blue damage? How about if there was also a slow reduction in BF? I would like this mind/BF healing to improve with ranks of Entertainment Healing. A group with a ranger, combat medic and squad leader could keep its members alive very effectively over the long haul.

Theoretically, a player who was devoted to membership in a particular squad with a charismatic leader could sacrifice points in Willpower to improve his physical stats because he'll be relying on his squad leader to keep his morale up.

As an aside, your Mobility III would require some additional changes. Currently musicians and dancers can do almost nothing else, including walking, while performing. My suggestion above would simply default to the Squad Leader as the one performing (id assume a gung-ho cadence) and that's why Ent Healing would give a bonus.

Another possibly consideration would be to have squad leaders give a small bonus to offense as well(anywhere between +10 to +20?) depending on their level. I do agree that the Squad Leader profession should not overlap with the Ranger profession, as their emphasis are different. Rangers help solders survive out in the wild and are more adapt to lead hunting expeditions, while squad leaders help soldiers survive on the battlefield and lead companies and platoons.

I think any skill tree revamp for the Squad Leader should keep this in mind, and when coming up with abilities, focus on the central theme that a squad leader should:

-Organize and rally his troops more effectivally than a group leader

-Communicate and issue orders more effectivally than a group leader

-Enhanse the natural abilities of his squad mates through his knowladge and example

Comnents?

Things such as /rally and /warcry fall under the first category. These do not necessarly have to have awesome healing powers and such, but enable him to keep a more cohesive group than an ordinary group leader would be able to. This involves some psychology to an extent, because the people you have to organize are PCs. So ways must be found to "corral" them to an extent, or at least make it easier for them to figure out what's going on. On many occasions I've been with groups that have become fragmented and disorganized once a fight began, or just split up while wandering around in the wild enroute to a target.

/flag and /sysmessage fall into the second category. Communications and targeting are the emphasis here. Also, I would like to see an ability to add a waypoint to everyone's map, either to a rally point (how many times have you been in a hunting group and everyone wanders off, or a teammate dies, clones, and wants to get back to the battle?) or a destination, so everyone knows where the group is heading. Want your squad to take position on a ridge outside of Bestine? send an instant waypoint and it's done. I may see a potential problem with this though, though while I don't think it should cost alot of HAM (this can basically be done with the map and e-mail, but takes a long time.) there is the potential for information overload if players have alot of open waypoints or a leader sends too many of these (limit, perhaps? Or maybe the waypoint can be set to time out after a certain value?)

In the last category, I see group bonuses. These are blanket values that do not necessarly raise people to a "master level", but enhanse the overall firepower and mobility of a group to a superior level than they would have if they were simply grouped or on their own. Squad Leaders are like the generals to an extent, and this is easy to picture in the terms of some RTSs (Empire Earth and Rise of Nations are good examples.) A group of units are attacking a base. You move a general amongst your units, and while he himself is not necessarly (key words, not necessarly...) a powerful unit, the bonuses he gives "blankets" the rest of your group and makes them less suspectable to damage and increaces their firepower.

I see three types of bonus here.

-Defensive

-Offensive

-Mobility

Mobility is important, and doesn't necessarly have to be limited to terrain negogations. This can also be a blanket modifier that say, lessens burst run costs, or lessens the burden armour or weapons have on the players. I'll leave the values up to the devs, as I wouldn't want to overinflate them. But the general effect should be that players led by a group leader will be able to move somewhat quicker, and be able to move easier with the equiptment they carry. Movement doesn't necessarly have to be constrained to the ground you cover. Mobility is essential in a fight and on the battlefield.

Firepower is a blanket bonus. A Squad Leader instructs how to best apply firepower, where to apply it, and increaces it's effectiveness. This can be reflected in a basic modifier that increaces the overall firepower of a group wheither it is a basic attack or volley. This again, should not be an inflated value, but be of benefit.

Same goes for defence. A squad leader can help his troops best find cover, prevent suppression, and recover from an attack. This is the same as above, but instead acts as an additional defence modifier against enemy fire.

So lets recap:

Hello everyone !!

I'm new to this board and new to the SL Profession. Please be patient if i'm missing some things, or if i'm misinterpreting things.

Just a question about the Mobility branch. How will the speed modifiers work ingame? (I know what you think: 'Hey... either that guy must be totally dumb, or he never played the game')

I'm thinking of the mounts/vehicles release to come in the next months. Where will these speed modifiers/abilities lead to? Is it intended to let them work for normal travel? How will that work in groups with mounts/vehicles?

I'm working on the Novice SL right now. With Burst Run you can get nice speed for a short time. But with mounts/vehicles, and the Burst Run, and all the modifiers from your Master SL, and maybe a 'Group Burst Run'.... It's a bird! It's a plane! It's Superman!... NO.. it's just MASTER SL leading his group, at ground level, from Doaba Guerfel to Coronet. The 9 mins wait for the shuttle were too long, and they arrived before the next shuttle did.

The 'March' Ability would be nice. But, as someone stated here, i think the devs wouldn't let us have this, because of the scouts and rangers and medics.

Raph's interview on UGO: "No, you'll have direct control (over the mounts/vehicles). And there will be combat on the mounts." Nice to hear...but how would the combat situations work with our speedups? If it would work at all (Lensar said it would be pretty useless in PVP)... ever seen dogs playing soccer with more than one ball? Would also lead to even more kiting, kiting, kiting... i can hear the words of the melee professions right now.

The rest sounds good. The only thing that kept me busy in thoughts all day, was the Mobility branch and how it should or could work.

As i said... i'm new to the profession, so please kill me if i'm wrong. But please don't let me die as stupid as before and explain me where i was wrong and where are the flaws. I hope i can add more to the discussion when i climb up the skill ladder.

Bye for now

Cyrus

PS: Please excuse any bad grammar or spelling. English isn't my native language.

Hello everyone!

I've been reading through this thread and a bunch of others and there are some excellent ideas! Just to let you know, I am currently a Novice Squad Leader on Test Center, the only one so far on TC as far as i know, though there are others who are going for it. So although I won't be able to test much yet till I level up, I will do what I can and let you know the results. If there are any concerns/questions or anything just post them here on this forum (Squad Leader) as I have it book marked, and I will let you guys know when/if/what I find with the profession as the devs implement changes/tweaks to Squad Leader. It might take some time b4 a patch comes out that addresses issues with SL but that will give me time to test the novice/low levels. I will also try to inform the SL correspondent directly besides posting on this forum.

Thanks

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Dustin_Asche wrote:

Carbineer/Squad Leader

Of course I'm a role-player. Why else would I have picked the two weakest Advanced/Hybrid proffesions in the game?

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Masochism maybe?

Yes, by the way, people, the new skill boxes replace the first ones posted .

Mik-Kael-

I do not like the idea of having squad leaders building defensive structures at all. However, I am totally for a new combat engineer class that could do just that. Squad leaders are not artisans. I also don't like /doubletime, it would defeat the whole purpose of my mobility line.

ckozlowski-

Yeah, that's true. I am considering making /volleyfire a top-tier skill and making it a free attack action, which wouldn't disrupt combat at all.

JediMasterAlagorn, Sahaqiel-

Yes, I agree. We should be the top targets in any squad .

Madrox-

How SL could boost forms of defense? Formations. Look at the Battle of Hoth, for example. Luke (Rogue squadron's leader), has his pilots go into Attack Pattern Delta to open the attack on the AT-ATs. The snowspeeders form into a single line directed at the lead AT-AT so that only the first snowspeeder could be attacked. Without our intrinsic bonuses to the squad, all we have to bring to the group are commands that will incap us from overuse.

Howdoes +5 group block, +5 group dodge at a level IV skill require nerfing?

Howdo you knowmarch isoverpowered? No definite values have been set. Adding +25 to marching could give a bonus of +.25 to healing rateor a bonus of +25. And scouts are already obsolete in a group- as SL we have Survival IV.

Warcry does not lower defense. It slows down attack.

Yeah, those precise volley fires would have a high cost to the SL, if I even keep them.

I don't think there should bea command that heals mind damage by itself. Let's say the command costs 200 mind and the health and action costs are too insignificant to matter. It heals maybe 100. So overall, the command would cost 100 mind and heal the whole group 100 mind.

Inspire does not tread on medic abilities because it would end mind incapacitation as well. Obviously the cost would be very high and would ideally be used as a last-ditch effort when many group members and/or the group's medical team are down.

Yeah, the new skills are replacing the old ones. Charge would be rather useful in PvP, but would have uses in PvE as well.

TonPhannan-

Again, no healing rate values have been given, and scouts are useless because we can make improved camps anyways. There is no way it would replace even the most basic ranger camp.

Steady aim might need tweaking as I have it now... I don't know, that's really something that should be decided in testing considering that the real command currently has no noticeable effect (so I have nothing to base it on).

Skojar-

I have thought about battle fatigue healing and did not find a good way to implement it as a command. Adding it to marching would be an option. But like I've said before, scouts are useless in a group with a squad leader.

I think they would have to add some kind of marching song for the ents that could only be used specifically for this, and would not heal any mind.

ckozlowski-

Yeah, the whole Strategy line is about offense. Tactics is defense obviously, with all the skill mods.

Those are very good themes to keep in mind. I likeyour group waypoint ability. I usually just spit out coords and use /waypoint when I get them, but most likely more than half the people don't knowabout /waypoint. I do not believe I would give it a HAM cost since it is not a combat command, but I think group waypoints should be limited to one for now considering how easily some people can become confused (such as with your experience).

Good point on Mobility too, lower HAM costs to armor would be rather helpful (since I currently do not wear it due to HAM costs). I will certainly consider your ideas and see if I can implement them, thank you.

Cyrus_Hollday-

Yeah I should point out that marching will move only as fast as the slowest member of the party (otherwise it would be rather ineffective). So hypothetically, if everyone was mounted on the same creature going relatively the same speed, they could haul. LOL, exactly like you said. Well, not quite like that. But bursting does slow you down afterwards. And marching speed benefits wouldn't be massive. But, no, the speed benefitswould not work in combat situations because of the nature of marching, as itwould endwhen a member enters combat. And I might incap you, but I won't deathblow . Nah, you did fine. It's all hypothetical anyways (look at us squad leaders getting all excited over things that may never even happen :smileytongue.

xulEnix-

Thanks, mate, every bit helps! I will look for your posts.

Sorry, people, I had college starting up again andI didn't havethe time to make another revision. However, the wait is over, and I present to youthe second editionof my revamped skill tree. Thanks to all who helped contribute, and I look forward to your opinions on this one. If we make enough noise, perhaps someone will hear us, or at least that is my hope in doing this.

Novice Squad Leader
Should have ability to see direction and distance to all group members' missions as if they were the squad leader's own.

Skill Mods
Group Ranged Defense +3
Group Melee Defense +3

Commands
System Message To Group - /sysgroup <message>
These messages should appear in bright color and should display in the group chat tab.
Group Waypoint - /gwaypoint <x> <z>
This command will add a waypoint to the entire group's datapads. Only one group waypoint may exist at once.
Flag Target - /flag <target>
This command will put an icon over a target's head in order to distinguish it better.

Mobility I Marching

Skill Mods
Group Terrain Negotiation +10
This mod allows group members to transverse terrain easier (including water) and lowers encumbrance for wearing armor.
Group Burst Run Efficiency +10
This mod improves the speed, duration, and cost of burst running.

Commands
March - /march
The squad leader forces the party into a formation, which provides similar benefits as being in camp, such as improved damage healing rate, slight wound healing, and creature repulsion. In addition, marching will slowly heal battle fatigue. Medics and entertainers cannot heal members while marching. Marching will end if a member enters combat.

Mobility II Formations

Skill Mods
Group Terrain Negotiation +10
Group Burst Run Efficiency +10
Group Accuracy While Moving +10
This mod increases the group's chances of hitting while moving.
Marching +10
This mod improves the benefits of the /march command.

Mobility III Drills
At this level, a member playing an instrument while marching can slightly improve the general movement speed of the party. Speed increase is dependent on marching skill and not instrument skill, but musical mind enhancement applies if available.

Skill Mods
Group Terrain Negotiation +15
Group Burst Run Efficiency +15
Marching +15

Mobility IV Charge

Skill Mods
Group Terrain Negotiation +15
Group Burst Run Efficiency +15

Commands
Charge! - /charge
Gives everyone a 30 second burst run that will not render them tired when it wears out. Brawlers will do double damage on the first target they hit during this period. Burst run efficiency applies.

Strategy I Planned Action

Skill Mods
Group Accuracy +10
This mod increases the group's to hit bonus.

Commands
Steady Aim - /steadyaim
Lasts for 30 seconds and makes it virtually impossible to miss targets. Does not fail.

Strategy II Preemptive Strike

Skill Mods
Group Counterattack +10
This mod controls the chance of the group responding to an aggressive attack with an unblockable counterattack.

Commands
Ambush - /ambush <target>
This command lasts for one round, and when used on a group of opponents centered on the selected target, it causes them to forfeit all actions for this round. All shots fired from cover at ambushed opponents hit for double damage.

Strategy III Coordinated Salvo

Skill Mods
Group Weapon Speed +10
This mod increases the attack speed of the group.

Commands
Rapid Fire - /rapidfire
For the next 15 seconds, all attacks will be executed at half speed.

Strategy IV Unified Strike

Commands
Volley Fire - /volleyfire <target>
This command directs the next attack of every squad member currently in active combat (and armed with a ranged weapon) at the designated target. This saturation of firepower has the effect of knocking down a group of opponents centered on the target.

Leadership I Enforced Discipline

Skill Mods
Morale +5
This mod increases group focus and willpower.

Commands
Form Up - /formup
Cures dizzy, stun, blind, and intimidation effects on all group members.

Leadership II Command Directives

Skill Mods
Morale +5

Commands
Regroup - /regroup
This command will stop or reduce bleeding on group members.

Leadership III Exemplary Behavior

Skill Mods
Morale +10

Leadership IV Battlefield Authority

Skill Mods
Morale +5

Commands
Inspire Greatness - /inspire
This command will end incapacitation on all party members.

Tactics I Battlefield Support

Skill Mods
Group Ranged Defense +5
Group Melee Defense +5

Commands
Rally - /rally
Lasts for 60 seconds and never fails.

Tactics II Special Defense

Skill Mods
Group Defense Vs. Blind +10
Group Defense Vs. Dizzy +10
Group Defense Vs. Intimidation +10
Group Defense Vs. Stun +10

Tactics III Collective Entity

Skill Mods
Group Ranged Defense +5
Group Melee Defense +5

Commands
Squad Mentality - /squad
This command redistributes the damage among the group.

Tactics IV Defensive Form

Skill Mods
Group Ranged Defense +5
Group Melee Defense +5
Group Block +5
Group Dodge +5

Master Squad Leader

Skill Mods
Group Terrain Negotiation +10
Group Burst Run Efficiency +10
Marching +5
Group Ranged Defense +7
Group Melee Defense +7
Morale +5
Group Accuracy +5
Group Weapon Speed +5

Im too tired to read everyone's post...but yeah that looks like an exciting class to play, too bad we dont have something similar. Although maybe certain aspects of it are a little to strong, I mean I dont know what +10 means to defense, the value system is a vague number, I got no clue how you calculate its effect in the game really. Anyways as long as it mainains balance in the game, this chart rocks.....well thought out and not bad at all.

I haven't gotten to SL yet, but I'll soon be there. One thing that I feel would be very useful for a Master SL would be the ability to place but not craft the ranger's advanced field base. I know that might anger the ranger's out there, but surely they'd make money out of it as they would be the only ones crafting. However, it does seem strange that field bases are for Rangers, and now Squad Leaders. Surely, it would make much more sense for a SL to have one. Perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about, especially as I don't have any experience as a SL yet, but it is food for thought.

Regards

DM

I've just started reading and posting on the SL board for the past week, and I've been trying to express that SL needs these kinds of mods and abilities liberally dispersed throughout the profession skill tree. I also strongly agree that a good portion of the SL's tree should contain passive improvements to various attributes of each group member, making a group with ANY level SL better than the same group without one.

I like the idea of SL being a force multiplyer, from Novice on up. I like these numbers in one sense: they look big. If their in-game affect is not that great, that is OK. But people will see that any squad leader can provide various levels of improvement to a group, and viola, SLs finally have a reason to exist. When PvPers begin to see SLs not onlyas necessary to the success of their group, but alsoas a major target, then the Devs will know they have finally produced a real Squad Leader profession. If targeting group leaders is a common tactic in the real world, we ought to see the same thing in SWG.

Regarding the skill mod numbers, I'm NOT sayingthe group effect numbers should have a giant effect on each group member. If nothing else, a hidden global muliplier could be used that could be tweaked at will by SOE to affect how much the visible group skill mods add to each members individual skills. I believe the Devs are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to making groups MORE effective when led by an SL: the ability of individuals to solo reds, and of larger groups to go anywhere and clear out any area or defeat any foe was not meant to be. We are complaining that there is no high-end content or challenges, but they see it from the opposite view: the players are overpowered in relation to the game's MOBs. This is why I believe that the devs' list of proposed changes contains a certain percentage of fluff and hand-waving, and a lack of skill mods or abilities that would make groups significantly more powerful just by the mere presence of an SL.

BTW, group mobility boosts need not affect vehicles to the same degree as they affect running,or even affect themat all. In the real-world, vehicle speed has little to do with group motivation and much more to do with the innate top speeds and accel of the vehicle and the terrain or roads that it must traverse.