Squad Leader Archive
Thread: MSL’s Unite !!! (initial thoughts from the TC)
KJFett3 wrote:
And yes, 2 SLs, with MBH/MCarb and SL one with 4400 and another with 0044 will be more effective than a MBH/MCarb and a MSL/Carb. THey would have every useful skill and both have 2 elite professions.
I'd disagree with that on several points. One, its going to take a greater level of coordination for two players each with only half of the SL template to utilize the full potential of SL. Two, they're not going to have access to the master box, which has some decent skill mods in it, not to mention a skill that's fairly usefull if you don't have any healers. And three, the first two templates you listed aren't a fair comparison to the second two, because the second two would still each have 52 skill points left to work with, whereas the first two templates you listed only have 4 skill points left each. A better comparison might be...
MBH/MCarbs/SL4400 and MBH/MCarbs/SL0044 vs. MBH/Mcarbs/CM4000 and MSL/MCarbs/Pistoleer0044
Such a matchup is more fair, and I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that the first is difinatively better.
There is nothign useful in the MSL box. They dont need it and those 2 will find it more usefull to have other combat temps. Fact is, multiple dabbler SLs are better. Why? Because 2 elite combat professions with some SL will always be better tha one elite combat profession combine with SL. Heck, itn the 2 groups I gave, the MSL group would only have 1 buff while teh 2 dabblers would have 2. Even there they are better.
I might be mistaken, but from what I've read in other postings, in the new system, if you have more than one SL in the same group, you can still only have one group buff running at one time. Also, why do you insist on saying the MSL box is useless? Second Chance sounds like it could be a pretty usefull skill, not to mention that the master box alone has most melee defense, ranged defense, general ranged accuracy, and general ranged speed than an entire line in BH.
Also, I think that with the new revamp, SL is being turned into an elite proffession. I did the math, and here's the skillmods that MSL gives vs. MBH...
MSL: +80 Accuracy, +40 Speed, +100 Melee Defense, +110 Ranged Defense
MBH: +85 Accuracy, +40 Speed, +95 Melee Defense, +120 Ranged Defense
As you can see, they're both pretty comprable, and MSL will stack pretty well with any other ranged proffession, such as say MRifles. Ifan MSL/MRifles has someone else in his group who can handle healing, then he can use his left over 52 skill points to dabble into another ranged proffession in order to get two high damage attacks to alternate with, and at that point in a group context he'll be just about as lethal as any other duel elite template.
You just aren't getting any of this are you? Round for round you have fought against the veteran SLs on every issue. What will it take to convince you? The destruction of our core? Our profession no longer being what it is titled to do? Is that what you want?
If you don't want to lead, what are you doing here!
I by now come to the conclusion that he's just a troll trying to stirr up trouble. And even did so very well. I mean, whatever he writes either is pety knowledge of which everybody here actually is aware of and which we follow since ages, false information which already more than 48 hours ago was confirmed to be otherwhise than he claims by experienced people from testcenter or are just, like in this posting the statement"Specials aren't nearly as important as they used to be. Skillmods matter much more." enpty phrases without actual meaning (I dare to mention, for example +150 of defence IS a skillmod, and one which will be applied to the complete team. Based on the statement that skillmode are the only things which matter, i dare to assume that thus the groupbuff also matters.)
I know that my tone is not nice and diplomatical when concerning Imaridril but all this nonsense-battle about void topics here is going to my nerves. Can we please all return to focus on the essentials, please?
KJFett3 wrote:
Imaridril wrote:
KJFett3 wrote:
as for the mods. Which would be better? A full MBH that has all the specials of the BH (and all the specials of a nother full elite class)and dabbles in SL for 2 of the best lines, or a MSL with that only gets the specials from one elite class and only dabbles in BH? You will find that the MBH has more mods and more skills, and will have many of the buffs that a MSL would be using.
So again, there is nothign in that MSL box that makes people want to master and not just dabble. Other professions have stuff in their master box that makes people want to master them. Above and beyond a few more points on a mod that they can pick up with the bonus fo specials elsewhere.
I still disagree. Specials aren't nearly as important as they used to be. Skillmods matter much more. As long as you've got one elite combat prof, and the skillmods of a second, the only important thing is that you get one decent damage special from another prof to alternate with. An MSL/MRifles will still have 52 skill points left to do this with. He can easily grab two lines in Pistoleer, Carbineer, or even BH to get some more specials. Now, granted, in a 1 on 1 fight, someone with MSL will probably lose to someone with with two other elite combat profs, but that's to be expected, since MSL is supposed to be a group prof, and nota solo one. Now, if we look back at the original 2 on 2 scenario I set up, and if we assume that there is some sort of mechanism that prevents stacking of group buffs, then I think we're looking at a pretty fair fight.
As to your arguement that the master box needs to be improved to deter dabbling, that sort of argument went out the window with the CU. The difference between a dabbler and a master in squad leader is no longer measured by just the master box. Its measured by the difference betweenhaving only two lines, or having all four lines plus the master box. The point I'm trying to make, is that even if the master box was completely empty, people would still get it if the other two lines were worth getting. The level system has pretty much eliminated three and four line dabblers. As soon as a dabbler gets one box beyond two lines in SL, he's pretty much committed himself to going all the way to master.
Now, if you feel that there are two specific lines in SL that are drastically more powerfull than the other two, then there might still be an issue, however the master box alone has very little impact on dabbling anymore. Also, if group buffs are allowed to stack, then dabbling might still be a problem, however, as I've said in quite a few other posts, I support the devs putting in some sort of system that limits how many group buffs a player can be affected by at one time.
You just aren't getting any of this are you? Round for round you have fought against the veteran SLs on every issue. What will it take to convince you? The destruction of our core? Our profession no longer being what it is titled to do? Is that what you want?
If you don't want to lead, what are you doing here!
From all the responses you keep posting to me, KJFeet3, I get the impression you don't want to lead either. All you seem to want is control. And frankly, why are you even bringing this up in this thread? We were discussing weather or not the current state of the master box will make it worth getting, and I tried pointing out several times that in the post-CU world, the master box all by itself has almost zero impact on dabbling. Weather or not a proffession has too many dabblers in it is determined entirely by if getting only one or two lines in that profs gives nearly all the power of the proffession. In the case of the SL revamp, no one so far has made the case that having two lines of SL gives you as much power in a group ashaving all four lines.
As for the rest of your post, what are you talking about? Destruction of your core? What core? Before the revamp, SL was dead. Heck, look at the astromech stats.Its the least played proffession in the game. The pre-revamp SL proffession adds almost nothing to game, as evidenced by the fact that nearly everyone who "leads" in the game has chosen to do so without using the SL proffession. Now the devs have given us a revamp where players who want to lead will actually have a reason to pick up SL, and you're seem to be acting like you've been stabbed in the back. Seriously, what did you want from this revamp?
I've posted numerous times that I agree that stacking of group buffs needs to be balanced, but I don't understand why you keep posting your JJ DID TIE BUCKLE stuff. I've read your "What is a Squad Leader" post, and it looks like the devs must have, too, since most of the revamp seems to be based around giving out group or individual buffs that simulate various leadership traits. What exactly are you mad at? From all I can gather, you're biggest complaint seems to be that you are mad that squad leaders no longer have to be in the group leader position to work, but what boggles my mind is that you don't seem to be mad about this from a gameplay or balance reason, but instead you appear to be mad at this because it will allow some players to run their squads in a manner that you don't think is fit. (Note: if you are actually opposed to the removal of the GL requirement for gameplay balance reasons, then say so, and explain why you feel that putting the GL requirement back in is the only way to fix these balance issues.)
It amazes me the number of people that show up with such strong opinions after having nothing to do with us for so long. Like they would suddenly be the expecrts on what we, the SLs should be. 
Funny how that works, huh?
captiansarcasmo wrote:
...soooo..... my initial thoughts from test center are.... i have none because i cannot form nor join a friggin group.
KJFett3 wrote:
as for the mods. Which would be better? A full MBH that has all the specials of the BH (and all the specials of a nother full elite class)and dabbles in SL for 2 of the best lines, or a MSL with that only gets the specials from one elite class and only dabbles in BH? You will find that the MBH has more mods and more skills, and will have many of the buffs that a MSL would be using.
So again, there is nothign in that MSL box that makes people want to master and not just dabble. Other professions have stuff in their master box that makes people want to master them. Above and beyond a few more points on a mod that they can pick up with the bonus fo specials elsewhere.
I still disagree. Specials aren't nearly as important as they used to be. Skillmods matter much more. As long as you've got one elite combat prof, and the skillmods of a second, the only important thing is that you get one decent damage special from another prof to alternate with. An MSL/MRifles will still have 52 skill points left to do this with. He can easily grab two lines in Pistoleer, Carbineer, or even BH to get some more specials. Now, granted, in a 1 on 1 fight, someone with MSL will probably lose to someone with with two other elite combat profs, but that's to be expected, since MSL is supposed to be a group prof, and nota solo one. Now, if we look back at the original 2 on 2 scenario I set up, and if we assume that there is some sort of mechanism that prevents stacking of group buffs, then I think we're looking at a pretty fair fight.
As to your arguement that the master box needs to be improved to deter dabbling, that sort of argument went out the window with the CU. The difference between a dabbler and a master in squad leader is no longer measured by just the master box. Its measured by the difference betweenhaving only two lines, or having all four lines plus the master box. The point I'm trying to make, is that even if the master box was completely empty, people would still get it if the other two lines were worth getting. The level system has pretty much eliminated three and four line dabblers. As soon as a dabbler gets one box beyond two lines in SL, he's pretty much committed himself to going all the way to master.
Now, if you feel that there are two specific lines in SL that are drastically more powerfull than the other two, then there might still be an issue, however the master box alone has very little impact on dabbling anymore. Also, if group buffs are allowed to stack, then dabbling might still be a problem, however, as I've said in quite a few other posts, I support the devs putting in some sort of system that limits how many group buffs a player can be affected by at one time.
Funny how that works, huh?
Aye... i tried, i really did. I very much envy those who can just walz in, grind ID an /respec to MSL, for me the /respec is disabled and i have to do it the long and hard way.
But going alone vs. durnis, i finally gave up. With the current speed, it'll take me days to just get the requirements for SL, i neither have the time nor the motivation to invest like that into it. (Sorry, but incredible as it sounds, i can imagine better fun than shooting at a lv. 7 durni, alternating attack and healing just to stay alive...)
Im currently lvl 13 and lacking the time to grind a new character on TC (I admit, I grinded ATK with a macro on my laptop while studying at home). But at lvl 13 I need getting some better equipment, need to do some mission for money as well as group up to advance faster and for that Im lacking the time.
I ll still bring that toon up to SL on TC sooner or more later. Though I think i have to rely on TC reports from our TC SL.
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