Squad Leader Archive

LecheHombre, I understand your point to a certain extent, but why is there a problem with Publish 24 and not pre Publish 24 with us being group leaders? We have to be group leaders now, but how is it any different when Publish 24 hits? You play with us now making us group leader to give you and the rest of the group benefits. Why is it different now than aftert Publish 24?

As for me not wanting to give up power? I can give you an answer to that that all will understand. After chosing this Profession since it was the closest thing to Pilot as could be done pre-jtl, I continued on this profession to LEAD. LEAD a team, LEAD players and be GROUP LEADER to LEAD my group. Not follow other players. I continued upon this profession because it was a GROUP LEADER profession.

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Imaridril wrote:

2. The SL needs to be the GL so that we don't have to worry about two SLs contradicting each other.

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I would much rather see the solution to this left up to the players. Let them figure out how to work with each other in a group and not contradict orders. I've said it before, if you aren't GL you can still lead your group. And if there are two strong leaders in a group they will have to work it out between themselves. This has nothing to do with being SL. SL is just a toolbox for modifying other players characters. Actual leadership comes from the players themselves and can never be simulated in a game.

never once have i ever heard one single squad leader say "we should have the ability to group together and stack our bonuses" not ONCE.

now all of a sudden a few have a very thin justification for why there should be. after reading through days of this i've come to this conclusion.

some people see this patch as a way they can turn their useless afk dance/doc buff bots into something useful. i cannot see any other reason people would want more than one squadleader to be able to work together in one group.

group leader sits in faction base and spams group buffs. "secondary" squadleader tags in group to give all the individual buffs saving all those pool points he would've used for group buffs. meanwhile the group leader has a full ham bar to execute all the group buffs he pleases. reminds me of the old days seeing these motionless sl sitting in faction bases.

i cannot see any other logical explaination for this line of thinking.

Actually it was on the top 5 lists submitted to the Devs a few times in the past. After their answer that it was the SL as GL and GL only that could affect the group the question stopped being asked.

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DiLune wrote:
Actually it was on the top 5 lists submitted to the Devs a few times in the past. After their answer that it was the SL as GL and GL only that could affect the group the question stopped being asked.

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I can remember that request among the issues with squad leader. That was PRE CU when groups were 20ppl large.

I dont think that that request realy holds up to the current PRE CU situation.

As for the squad leaders in a group can discuss this with each other, as we have a lot of reasonable ppl around, this might be one option but what about the overstacking and the imbalance and the dabblers and the worth of the squad leader box as well as griefing through abuse?

Groupleader = squad leader will not realy solve this issue but a limitation on the number of squad leaders could, also a squad leader who can set his second in command as some can avoid abuse or grieving. And when we have to limit the usages of squad leader buffs to prevent overstacking and create a chain of command why not use the existing coding of groupleadership ?

What about this?

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I am a SL, and I at least know some of the reasoning. Here is what I have heard...

1) The group leader does not mean Squad Leader. The group leader's function is to invite or kick members. The Squad Leader does not have to be a group leader, to lead the group.
To defend that position as a Squad Leader, more people will think of you as the leader, rather than someone that gives group bonuses.

2) Sometimes there is more than 1 Squad Leader in a group. Why would the group not be all the better, as two SLs are better than one?
To defend Squad Leaders, this never happens. During the cursed days of holocrons, this would only happen as MSLs would go with hologrinders to teach them, so they could master SL in a few hours. Despicable!

3) Group leaders themselves are a burden. What if the group leader dies? That leader has to get back before they can invite anyone. There should be a better way, maybe where anyone can invite new members, and the others just say Yay or Nay. *shrug*

Anyway, that's what I know of. Personally, I want to be the group leader. For #1, it makes me leader in every way, and people don't think of me as the leader unless they know I am a SL and I am the group leader.

I wanted to post this earlier but got tied up with work. This was written in response to AlienEntity's post #14. I'll go ahead and post now and try to follow up to things since then also.

The problem with being GL post publish 24 as opposed to pre is that the new system allows for multiple SL's... They can't all be group leader.

The reason that there weren't any complaints before is that there was no reason to have multiple SL's in a group before. Heck, for 95% of the playerbase, there was probably no reason to have *one* SL in the group, hence SL's position at the bottom of the astromech stats for profession holders.

Basically, those that want the benefits of a SL right now on pre-publish 24 live are willing to make a person dedicated enough to be a SL in its current state (I /salute you for that, btw) the group leader simply because that is what is required to get the benefits. Conformity to the confines of the situation. And, if you think about the reality of those astromech stats, the issue doesn't even come up for a huge majority of the people playing the game.

I think that the fundamental root of the difference in our opinions is that you feel that being the group leader is a necessary step in facilitating your SL capabilities while and I feel that the group leader is an arbitrary position that solves only the function of adding/removing groupmates and setting the loot options. I admire your desire to lead a group of players, but in my opinion that can be done with or without being the group leader, and honestly with or without being a squad leader also. However, I feel like the new SL skills (and to a lesser extent some of the old ones) really do encourage and assist in simulating true leadership in the game, while group leadership remains a mechanical distinction with little to no meaning.

Therefore, to me "giving up" a required group leader position seems like no tangible loss at all, and gaining all these new and interesting skills and bonuses seems like a very worthwhile thing. Overall, I would feel that the change would be unnecessary were it not for the fact that they have said that under the new system multiple SL's can contribute to a group instead of just one. I like this change, although I can understand the opinions of those that don't.

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LecheHombre wrote:

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I think that the fundamental root of the difference in our opinions is that you feel that being the group leader is a necessary step in facilitating your SL capabilities while and I feel that the group leader is an arbitrary position that solves only the function of adding/removing groupmates and setting the loot options (a). I admire your desire to lead a group of players, but in my opinion that can be done with or without being the group leader, and honestly with or without being a squad leader also.

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However, I feel like the new SL skills (and to a lesser extent some of the old ones) really do encourage and assist in simulating true leadership in the game, (b)

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Overall, I would feel that the change would be unnecessary were it not for the fact that they have said that under the new system multiple SL's can contribute to a group instead of just one. (C)

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(a) The position as a groupleader is not arbitrary as it seems, it gives control of the group/squad and the measures to organice the group and deterimine the mix of ppl, as in that he can decided who he wanted invited or kicked in the group or not.

E.g:
In cross guild PvP where as a MSL tries to create a ranged group to focus fire of the available different ranged profession gets invited into a group of two ranged, one melee and some jedi. He tries to organice the defenders. He doesnt get leadership, the melee leaves the group out of his own will while suddently the groupleader, who seem to be a cloaker disapears because he thinks its a good idea to do some recoinassisnce. The MSL was meanwhile taking care the other present groups as well as defenders get into good organiced groups as well. Now The groupleader is 1k far away guarding the nearest shuttleport and the MSL can not invite anybody else anymore. He has to disband everbody even loosing the recoiaissens the cloaker would have been able easily to apply.

If the Squadleader has to be leader to apply his buffs, he would have been made groupleader right after joining. He would still let the cloaker run away to get info and reconaissence but would be able to fill up his group with the other ranged profession.

(b) the current set point slightly into the right direction though the duration isnt suitable for a squadleader in combat. As a squad leader I would rather have short term buffs to adapt to the current battle situation. These long term buffs are just long term buffs and with those we are jsut buff bots. A player who would like to play a squad leader isnt forced to lead aka decided what buff to use in what situation. He just picks one more ore less randomly in the worst case and thats it.

(c) Having multple squad leaders in one group using their abilities is in my humble opinion not very close to being or mimicing or playing a squad leader. No matter if the player has any real leadership abilties or not.
This fact that allows multiple squad leaders in one group is also conected in a certain way to the groupleader = squad leader issue. Pls read this post

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_scout_ wrote:
What you've been almost missing in your first comment on the GL = SL issues and your hokey analogy is that between the players there is a clear chain of command, who is captian who is defense or attack.

Some SLs dont see the problem as they play mostly within their guild, but again this is a prettty close environment where there are socials positions giving a natural chain of command between your friends. YOu know not to hit your smugglerfriends target, and rather assit your tanke while your SL volleyfires it.

But in an open environemnt like the MMORPG you also have ppl who play with random ppl, and although Im guilded I do that a lot.
My guild has pretty good alliances with other guilds and I have a very high rate of changing ppl, but at least they know me, which also again gives a chain of command.

Now what would happen with two total new SL in one group who dont know each other? And both are strongheads not going for a compromise. Among the variety of players there are ppl who dont mix well. Even among squad leaders.

In that case there is no chain of command, there would be an open opposition.

This fact some of us want to avoid with

(a) the old restriciton of being the group leader (What as well could reintroduce the SL xp what was bound to groupleder)

(b) the limitation of SL per group

(c) the set 2nd set 3rd command to multiple squad leaders if we have to accept this as fact.

I still await a DEVs comment on this as this would clarify a lot.

I ll be back later for more ...

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I am one of those people that thinks about this mostly from a standpoint of a group that already knows each other, or a guild setting. I agree that there are chain of command problems, but I think those are best resolved as they arise, by the SL's in the group. However, I can see that this would be much more difficult in a random group than a set of players that know each other.

Certainly though, some restrictions are needed to prevent stacking from being overpowering, and to make MSL worthwhile over multiple dabblers. As for your thoughts on methods to achieve that:

A) As I've stated, I like multiple SL's per group, which can't be done with the GL requirement. I would really like to see a return of SL xp, but this could be done without the GL requirement.

B) Limiting the number of SL's per group would work, but I'd rather see something that would limit the effectiveness of stacking multiple buffs. Something like, if you apply 2 buffs to a group, each one is only 66% as effective as if it were the only one applied.

C) A command to formalize the chain of command of multiple SL's would be interesting, possibly defaulting to the order in which they join the group? However, the main issue with chain of command seems to be with the skills that can be contradictive, and with command-oriented /sys messages. I'd even support a compromise where only a SL in the group leader position could issue those sort of commands, although from my (admittedly relatively ignorant) perspective that seems like overkill.

Some dev information would be ideal, but it seems that they are up to their usual tricks of sticking stuff in without any input from us players, discussion, or even solid information about *how* all the new stuff is *supposed* to work. This does get pretty frustrating when it happens time and again...

Just to cover my butt again, I want to reiterate that I respect your opinions, really moreso than my own because you guys are the ones that really have been SL's and have a good idea of what the SL profession means to you and what it could ideally become. I'm just trying to explain my stance as a holder of the opposite opinion on this one, so perhaps we don't all seem like whiny nutcases...

Well alot of what you just posted is basicaly what they've been saying anyway. Only you thought it out and put it into more detail then others who think we just want to control the GL postition. So, it's not realy an opposite opinion. One thing that's not misunderstood among us all however is that we would like to hear from a dev or two to clear up some of what we've been debateing and a rough idea of what we can expect to hit live out of what we're seeing soo far.

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LecheHombre wrote:

I am one of those people that thinks about this mostly from a standpoint of a group that already knows each other, or a guild setting. I agree that there are chain of command problems, but I think those are best resolved as they arise, by the SL's in the group. However, I can see that this would be much more difficult in a random group than a set of players that know each other. (a)

Certainly though, some restrictions (b)are needed to prevent stacking from being overpowering, and to make MSL worthwhile over multiple dabblers. As for your thoughts on methods to achieve that:

A) As I've stated, I like multiple SL's per group, which can't be done with the GL requirement. I would really like to see a return of SL xp, but this could be done without the GL requirement. (c)

C) A command to formalize the chain of command of multiple SL's would be interesting, possibly defaulting to the order in which they join the group? (d)

However, the main issue with chain of command seems to be with the skills that can be contradictive, and with command-oriented /sys messages. (e) I'd even support a compromise where only a SL in the group leader position could issue those sort of commands, although from my (admittedly relatively ignorant) perspective that seems like overkill.

Some dev information would be ideal, but it seems that they are up to their usual tricks of sticking stuff in without any input from us players, discussion, or even solid information about *how* all the new stuff is *supposed* to work. This does get pretty frustrating when it happens time and again... (f)

Just to cover my butt again, I want to reiterate that I respect your opinions, really moreso than my own because you guys are the ones that really have been SL's and have a good idea of what the SL profession means to you and what it could ideally become. I'm just trying to explain my stance as a holder of the opposite opinion on this one, so perhaps we don't all seem like whiny nutcases... (g)

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(a) as i stated before that is a very close environment. I had to see multiple leader types in mass combat cross guild PvP clashing on each other argueing and argueing on ventrilo or chat what will be the next move while the groups doesnt know whats going on and in the end everybody gets torn apart although we had 2 times their numbers. With or with groupleading this will not resolve this issue but it would act as a chain of command given by game mechanigs.

(b) there we all argree we need restrictions and thats whats partially this is all about, restricting it to the groupleader only being able to provide buffs and to set a 2nd in command( as was proposed in one of these threads as this discussion is going scatter along 10 differents threads thx to the high influx of new posters each starting a new thread, making it very frustraaing for the old time forum squad leaders to keep repeating everything over and over again)

(c) the old code only allowed you to gain SL xp while groupleader and that was the time of 20 ppl group PRE CU. In those days mutliple SL would have been a benefit but in a 8man group which is already close to be the smallest RL combat group where is the need for three Master Squadleaders? so they each can command two ppl? Those are called fireteams in the RL but those do not need a Master squad leader. Thre privates, one getting the lead from the sergant or the MSL as in this game can handle that pretty well alone.

(d) VERY bad idea. what if a novice opens a group and a MSL joins later? there has to be if you want to code a chain of command a way of implementing this. currently the group is created and controled by the groupleader, why not use these already existing codings to create this chain of command?

(e) the /sys msg only works when you are groupleader, this command is tied to the grouping coding. so to gain benefit of the MOST used and IMPORTANT squad leader ability you have to be groupleader anway. Again these are coding mechanis already in the game, which are NOT bad or contradicting to the profession. Why drop them? Its like docs dont earn XP while they work in a med center - oh we have that already, so should we destroy the Squad leader profession to with this revamp? (over exagerated I know )

(f) I asked that several times again and darth sushi said he is working on that. we realy need the DEV here to explain us what his vision was with these changes.

(g) dont sweet talk the old time forum squad leaders, that wont work.
Bring beer and pie or brandy and cigars, that will do the trick

p.s.
do some more reading, aka ready the whole front page to catch up on all arguments as well all solutions to the different problems that currently arise with this revamp.
I ve read them all....
/sigh
its just exhausting and frustrating to see the same arguemnts fromthe DEV tracker trolls and the new
wannatellushowweshouldbesquadleader posters.

Even some old time squad leaders have hard times catching up with the discussion.

also read the old in focus thread to get a condensed version of the discussion, where not everything is said times and times again.

The other in focus threads are trolled to much to gain any information though ...

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Actually, Scout, i would suggestnot to spread the url of the one good thread around so much.

All postings there are in a decent and civil manner and we even have the habbit of transfering very good ideas there, even if they are not from ourselves.

So i see no reason to lead the trolls there. Let's rather keep their agro on us so they stay here and don't move to a place where they can do more damage... *grin*

Message Edited by Sylow on 09-07-2005 02:41 AM