Squad Leader Archive
Thread: Squad Leaders: Top 5 Issues
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=squad_leader&message.id=8592
CU
Mille
Thunderheart,
I would like to say that you are making a good effort in getting this show on the road but since beta, there has been little help to this profession. There are no TOP 5 reasons. If the devs want to pick any 5 reasons and go from there..that is fine. In my opinion I think the whole class needs a rework so let the devs pick 5 and go from there.
TH, I think nearly all professions have already made such a top priority list (more than once even) and they are sticky in most cases. If this polls of you are supposed to be just additional to that, add this information in the post in the next profession poll please. Otherwise some people here might feel somewhat ignored(if not already the case.)
I can't speak for everyone but I will list some concerns that seem to trouble the community specifically:
COMMANDS
- Failure rates need to be examined. Some people think this has improved lately but I'm not convinced.
- Brain costs need to be examined. There is obviously a direct correlation between failure rates and brain costs and the frustration many of us feel when we try to use any of our abilities.
- There are some things that seem to work all of the time but maybe aren't all that useful. /formup never fails for me, but the brain cost is rather high and it only affects two states. This command is very useful in 2-3 situations, but not useful at all in most others.
- There are some things that usually fail far more than they succeed and are not useful at all. /volleyfire, when it works, does indeed bring about a volley of fire - for somewhere between 100-200 damage if you're lucky and the mob has no resistances. /volleyfire needs to be revisited. Its a great idea but it was executed poorly the first time around.
- There are some commands which seemingly have no practical application in battle. I have never used /retreat defensively or in battle at all, only to get my people to where we are going maybe a smidge faster. It occupies a box and costs XP and skill points to obtain, so obviously it should either be more useful or replaced with something else.
- We receive no new commands once achieving Master and the increases to our existing passive bonuses is arguable if not negligible.
PASSIVES / PHILOSOPHY
- The idea that the Squad Leader should strongly resemble the EQ Bard in the way of passive combat bonuses and increased movement speed has been beaten into the ground. Its pretty safe to say that we want to be able to make our teams better at everything they do involving combat. This could also definitely aid in Squad Leaders feeling as if they have not "wasted all those skill points on the third most expensive elite profession in the game."
- The Group Bust Run Efficiency bonus granted by the Mobility tree only makes it cost a little less HAM for one of our team members to burst run. I think its safe to say that we would like this to do something better (like making the burstrun timer shorter, making burst run last longer, or possibly both) or be changed to something more readily applicable.
- Speaking of skill point costs, the fact that the Survival/Scout tree is required for Novice Squad Leader has recently given rise to the idea that we should be able to use that Camping ability for something or that it should no longer be required for Novice Squad Leader. Think repelling mobs or offering combat bonuses while in a Squad Leader's camp. You could even add this new stuff to the mobility tree in place of Group Burst Run Efficiency if no one wants to change that and rename it to "Field Combat" or something.
XP GAIN
- Many Squad Leaders deride the fact that Squad Leader XP is based on the damage we do as Squad Leaders. Many people interested in being Squad Leader / Medic types would like to be able to receive Squad Leader XP in a different way, as in tying Squad Leader XP to the combat xp you receive regardless of how you receive it - in this case receiving combat XP for healing, etc. This could get dangerous, in that if you make Squad Leader XP difficult to get or only attainable in small increments by making it attainable in different waysyou will have some very livid people on your hands.
THINGS WE WANT
- The ability to /paint a target is sought after and desired.
- The ability to set a waypoint for the entire group to see has also been thought of fondly.
- The ability for the Squad Leader to see all group mission waypoints would be a welcome addition.
THINGS WE DON'T WANT
- Not too long ago we heard tell of a Squad Leader tree redesign that included many commands and abilities that would force our team members into doing things (i.e. forcedfollow and the like). These ideas were universally derided as turning us into "Puppet Masters" or "PLayer Handlers" and thus making us less desirable in a group than we already are. Unless this thread fills up with differing ideas, any thing that resembles this philosophy should be abandoned and forgotten.
- That being said, Ipersonally would like the ability tofocus my team's targeting reticles to my current target by way of a command. The/painttarget idea is fine for PVE but in PVP the extra step (and thus, extra second or two) could result in bad things happening. Of course, alongwith this ability it would be great to include the option for players to be able to ignore this or turn it off. But /painttarget would be far better than nothing, and you'd never hear me complain about /forcetarget never making itlive.
- Do not, for the love of all that is holy, take away our Terrain Navigation bonus. Everyone loves that we do that for them, even if we don't do anything else.
So there is a general idea of what has been discussed over the last several months. I'm sure other issues exist but this is my collation of what I have experienced, what my fellow Squad Leaders have told me, and what has been mentioned on this board.
1) We provide nothing significant to a group in combat
2) What little we do provice in combat, sucks our HAM dry so fast as to be equivalent to painting a giant target on our forehead. (/rally, crap, /rally, crap, /rally, whew.. Time for a nap, where'd I put that camp again....)
3) We provide nothing significant to a group out of combat (We can build camps, but so can any Scout. Why do we need to know how to build camps anyway? There's not a single crafting ANYTHING in the SL tree?)
4) The main things we do provide out of combat (passive bonuses) are either Too small to be noticed, or so common (terrain negotiation) that they usually aren't used (except by them crawlin-on-the-ground riflemen, they crack me up).
5) Our skills seem to assume we're a combat specialist, when in reality we don't have enough Skill points to pick up any of the "good" combat professions (Commando or Bounty Hunter). Like Retreat's "Get back, I'll hold them off" message. I don't know about the rest of the guys here, but me & my FWG5 are usually the first ones down when things go south.
1] Sysgroup is not a real skill. It is easily replaced with formatted alias commands (Red all caps works fine) or with free utilities like teamspeak which are superior for speed and ease of use.
2] Failure rate for rally. It is too easy to decimate the mind pool without sucessfully rallying. Impotence of volleyfire. If volleyfire causes people to use autoattacks instead of their queued special skills it actually reduces the amount of damage done that round both in HAM and in status effects.
3] Boost Morale: aside from having nothing to do with it's name this skill is not worthy of a tier 4 box. Spreading wound damage increases the number of patients that medics have to work on and does not actually reduce the overall amount of wounds. If this balanced damage it would be a sought after skill as it would significantly increase a parties ability to keep all players on the field.
4] The passive defenses seem overly mild, they have tested to approx. 15% effectiveness at master level. This is a minor bonus which appears entirely negligible at lower levels. Compare their potency to stat buffs and/or advanced heals and they don't come close to stacking up.
5] Overall the skills lack in substance, potency and tangibility. The SL does not impact a group strongly enough to be noticed except through roleplaying which could be as easily accomplished while playing a doctor with the bonus of having an extremelypotent skill set. Some SL abilities are diminished in value by their heavy overlap with common skills. Player speed caps for instance reduce the terrain navigation bonuses' merit significantly for a large portion of the player base. The skillset is simply lackluster and underwhelming when seen in action.
6] Where is the human leadership bonus?!
TH, thanks for posting in our forum and giving SLs some muchneeded attention. I wouldliketo add a couple ofpoints.
I also think that the passivebonuses should be increased, however, it still maynot be apparent to other group members thatSL passive bonuses have helped them. I suggest that you when a blow is averted or its damaged lessen because of the SL group melee defensive bonus, that this fact appear in thecombat channel window, similar to the way a message isposted thata medic has healed you for so much action damage. This way, it will be clear to other players that SLs are a benefit to the group.
I thinkthe DEVs have already fixed the SL xp formula to include damage done by the group and not just the SL. This is a positive change. Perhaps, the xp formulashould be tweeked, but not until the classisimproved.
Some skill, other than sysgroup message, needs to be given to the SLsthat just have the novice block.
With respect to the volley fire, the reason the skill isn't useful, is that ithas every player do a normal /attack, instead of their respective specials. Thus, the skill actually makes the group less effective.
No benefit to the group versus any other organzied player.
Skill fail to much, use to much HAM, and are not effective or useful.
Need more diverse passive bonus to defensive and offensive skills of the group i.e. defense vs disease/poison, chance to hit modifer, dodge or some variation,combat healing,etc...
Need to increase current passive bonus for melee and ranged defense. They don't appear to work at all or well.
Need to flesh out the skill trees because there are only a few skills, none in master or novice (aside /sysgroup).
The skills that are in the skill trees are of no value aside from /formup (remove a stun/dizzy state).
Steady Aim only helps those with the least amount accuracy like a commando or another low accuracy profession.
Rally isn't good. It hinders other members from doing healing and foraging and other things I am not aware of I am sure.
Volleyfire doesnt support specials and only redirects the group to a single mob for one shot then resumes as normal to prior targets.
Cannot effectivley lead groups with a /sys %TT command because mobs are sometimes similar in names.
Combat support class with no real combat support abilities or skills. We need a way to DO something on the field that is measurable.
Even with changes there is no incentive to join with a SL. Make a reason to do so like adding an experience modifier at Master or somwhere.
SL could use some of the skills that it gives out to the group. Any mob or npc leader is always a little tougher than the average drone ;-)
Mounts/Vehicles/shipsand how they intereact withSL's NEED to be disucussed, **edit** this in the bud TH be the man witha SL vision 
GCW needs a profession with limited ability to make some overt. SL fits that bill. Make SL different than other professions. Just my opinion though.
Sub grouping with multiple squad leaders makes sense and could provide a means for large raids by PA, or just in the field killing by allocation groups for healers, melee, ranged, etc. This was disucussed in the 8/22 post of holo.
More than five...better get out now.
Here is our top 5 according to the Squad Leader Correspondent's report posted on Sept. 5th.
Here's a link to the thing. You might want to read it too. Lord knows nodev has.
http://www.geocities.com/vemnox/SLReport.htm
(1) The Mobility line of the Squad Leader is insubstantial. It's cost vs. benefit is not rewarding what it should.
Suggest: Implementing movement speed increase that is pulsing active AND/OR Increase the benefits already in place AND/OR create a new line of commands to fill in the gaps.
(2) Mind costs and fail rates of Squad Leader commands are phenomenally high. The mind drain takes off over half of most players' pools and the commands fail more than they succeed.
Suggest: Reducing the cost of all Squad Leader abilities AND/OR giving a small mind heal to the Squad Leader to use on self and group members such as /encourage or something to that nature (squad leaders speak to their troops!) AND/OR reduce the fail rates of all Squad Leader skills to either a set number or to a variable number that gets lower by the higher Squad Leader skill you have AND/OR the costs for the Squad Leader abilities should be based on the number of people in the group (why should it cost the same to heal 2 people as 20?)
(3) The Novice Squad Leader skillbox grants no abilities other than the non-gameplay useful /sysgroup command.
Suggest: Putting a lesser value of the upper skill box's abilities here AND/OR implementing a new ability all together (many have suggested letting Squad Leaders do the NPC faction person's job by being able to recruit, promote, etc. (everything but sell equipment) for their faction.
(4) /boostmorale is balancing wounds, not damage. People who just arrived successfully healed may find themselves down several wounds when just joining a group.
Suggest: Allow /boostmorale to balance damage, not wounds.
(5) The way Squad Leader XP is calculated has no relevance to what the Squad Leader is actually doing.
None of these issues have been fixed. Only one of them has been addressed at all or even responded to since SWG went live, and that appears to have been an accident (the weird random xp nerf and subsequent"fixes"). Those fixes have landed us in the exact same situation, only now it's an absurdly hugeamount of xp (up to 100,000 xp per kill!) that has even less relevance to what the Squad Leader is actually doing. At least before, we got experience for adding faction pets to the squad and doing damage, now we get allour xp for joining a squad and going AFK for all our contribution matters.
Since this report, issue #1 has actually gotten worse with other professions getting their own personal terrain negotiation, so we have even less overall effect on squads than before.
Keep in mind that, havingaddressed these top 5 issues, SLs will still be left with a majorityof abilities that have no apparent effect or do not work whatsoever. A top 5 hardly seems adequate.
Thunderheart, please realize that this is a very, very touchy community with a history of feeling stepped on and ignored, and rightly so. Whether you or SOE will recognize it or not, that is how we feel.
I feel I can speak for allSquad Leaderswhen I say that we will sincerely and enormously appreciate anything you can do to make this thing move along.