Squad Leader Archive

Well, I've been playing a Squad Leader for about three weeks now and I am quite dissapointed. I read the boards a lot, but rarely post. What I see here is disheartening. Our profession thread is the smallest except Pikeman, and how many of those do you see running around? I know there are not that many Squad Leaders, and that is probably the way it should be (imagine how difficult it would be to get SL experience if there were as many of us as there were Creature Handlers or Bounty Hunters), but we need to get our voices heard so here it goes.

My point is this, our profession is weak and unnoticed because there can't be very many of us, and therefore aren't. It is the one profession that is ruled by that law. With an abnormal ammount of Squad Leaders, none of them would ever be able to get experience (excepting the idea that Squad Leaders can group with their pets).Soooo, the developers made this profession undesirable to limit the number of players who would choose to persue it. After careful analysis I have determined that this profession is worthless, and likely designed to be that way on purpose.

When I started the road to this profession I was thinking that the few abilities would either be expanded on, and/or work flawlessly. I also assumed that upon reaching master, you would be granted something worth while. I had no reason to believe otherwise. Look at all the other skills. When was the last time Body Shot failed to do damage to the health pool? And I'm sure we remember the first weak of the game where weapons did virtualy no damage and killing creatures yielded 10 experience points. These issues were all fixed and the game was somewhat balanced. Now we are looking at the time where Squad Leaders are needed. There are Dungeons and Theme Parks to explore, Story missions to acomplish, and quests and advanced planets to work on. My e-mail should be full with requests to lead groups, but no one cares because I don't do anything to bring the group together and help them gain levels, loot, or status. If it wasn't for the extensive list of friends I developed at the beginning of this game I would have never gainied any experience at all. As it is I am just finishing the second tier of Squad Leader and looking at the 350K xp per box for the third about chokes me.

Here are my top five complaints/requests/cry's for help/whatever:

1. Faction pets, Droids, and Creatures are worthless now so soloing is out. Ifyou ever want to play during off hours againyou need to make another character so thatyou can actually do something because grouping with one or two people on the red eye shift yields no xp. Either give some missions for Squad Leaders to do (not likely, because I can't think what they could possibly be), or give us one or two pets/creatures/droids that we can group with. That along with a couple other PC's and their pets makes a decent group. Three or four PC's with their pets should be a tough group to handle, especially if there is a Squad Leader among them. Not the way it is now where you can't kill a squad of Storm Troopers without going incap, especially when a week ago I could kill three Storm Troopers by myself with just one pet.

2. The /group commands have worked maybe two days since beta. No one seems to care about this, but I think that's because they haven't had the bennifit of seeing it work properly. When /group notify is set to on you can control a groups looting behavior, and the /group autosplit command eliminates the whole terrible situation that ensues when you kill a Master Dark Jedi and no one wants to split up the loot.

3. The Squad Leader commands fail way to often. I figure they only work about 50% of the time if I'm lucky. And with that Mind drain, whew, it hurts to use those commands in combat.

4. PVP and Squad Leader. We need some abilities that make our group actually stonger than an opposing force that is equal in number. The way it is now if there are to identical groups and one has a Master Squad Leader and the other hasa Master Bounty Hunter (or Master Pistoleer or whatever) instead, then the Squad Leader is going to get housed. He brings nothing to the table that can't be taken away by one well placed Eye Shot, especially after trying to use a couple SL commands.

5. Enforcement and direction. The called shot is a start, but it could go a bit further. Directing traffic is the biggest nightmare. Once your group gets up to the full twenty it can be impossible to see who is doing what. I would love to be able to have a Called Shot that didn't drain my mind at allAND something like a forced march to move people out of a hostile killing zone. I can't tell you how often a grouphas beensplit in half when under heavy fire, and inevitably gone to pieces, when sticking together would have pulled us through.Adding an actuall rally command that hauls the group to a point would be a nice addition, as well as some kind of symbol,flag, or pillar of light on the Squad Leader at all times so the people in the group could identify who their leader is. Another great feature would be if I could drag waypoints over a character name in the list and have that appear on thier map. What a time saver for whenever someone gets left behind or goes LD, or whatever. . . .

I could go on and on. What it comes down to is I feel this profession needs a lot of work, but it could be great. What I want is for you all to continue to post here to get the attention we need from the devs. What the REAL problem is, is how do we make this profession great without over-populating the galaxy with Squad Leaders?

What is the real problem? There are a couple.

Problem #1: Top of the list, is that we simply have no feedback from the developers. None. The Commando got bad feedback, but at least they got feedback, something to respond to and discuss. I feel like we're talking to the air here.

Problem #2: People don't care about Squad Leaders. This is because Squad Leaders don't present any tangible bonus. The skills that we have are useless, bugged, invisible, or all of these. Things like to-hit bonuses and defense bonuses always make me nervous, because how can you tell that they're ACTUALLY having any effect? Since people can't SEE the effect, they aren't impressed or inspired by it, and thus don't care to seek out a Squad Leader.

The Squad Leader shouldn't have to ask (or practicallybeg, as I've had to do at least once) to be made the group leader. People should be falling over themselves to make you the leader to make use of your skills, to improve themselves. Despite this, I think the Squad Leader would remain a naturally "rare" profession, simply because it doesn't directly improve you in any way. Why should I waste time getting a profession that only helps others, when I could just be a Teras Kasi artist or Pistoleer (which are ultra-simple to achieve compared to hybrid professions like Squad Leader) and become amazingly effective in my own right?

So, can we address Problem #1? No. All we can do is continue to state the facts, and hope that the developers eventually take notice, and that when they do, they take action to improve the sources of our concerns rather than continue to enforce the profession's virtual uselessness.

Problem #2, then. Okay, here's my summary of the major concerns:

Basic: Novice Squad Leader. You gain no skill, ability, or bonus, other than the /sysgroup message power. While "neat," this does not really do anything of noteworthy value in my experience. I can just as well use groupchat, or even just spatial, in most instances, to convey what I want to say.

Skill Tree 1:Mobility. The general concensus seems to be that a little bit of Group Terrain Negotiation is helpful, but anything past the first block is really a waste. Group Burst Run efficiency is generally thought of as useless. So in sum, level 1 is seen as okay, all above it need to be reworked.

Skill Tree 2: Strategy. This entire tree is viewed as useless. I see no value in the SteadyAim command; why should you use up a valuable action to *possibly* increase the to-hit values of the group for a single shot? Missing seems to be a relatively rare occurence to me, and is much less important in groups than when going solo. At level 2, you get a bonus to this "ability." Since the base ability is useless, then logically, getting a bonus to that same ability is likewise without value. At level 3 you get Volley Fire, which while good in theory, fails utterly in practice; again, this skill must be relegated to the "valueless" category. At level 4, you again get a bonus to an already-useless skill. No matter what you multiply by zero, your result is always zero.

Skill Tree 3: Leadership. Level 1 grants the Formup command. Currently virtually useless. You cannot remove Stun or Dizzy effects from yourself or pets, or while in any posture other than standing. Stun and Dizzy are not common enough effects in my experience that an entire ability should be devoted to removing them, nor should such an ability have any chance of simply not working, any more so thana medic should have a chance of simply failing to cure any damage. Level 2 and 3 grant a defense bonus, which is nice in theory, but without knowing the mathematics of combat to-hit resolution, I have no idea how good they are in practice. That is, if I have +25 defense, what does that MEAN? Level 4 is BoostMorale, which is once more useless. For a fourth-tier skill, it should really be more impressive than simply averaging a group's Wounds. Averaging Wounds has almost zero effect on combat, and is an ability I would never use.

Skill Tree 4: Tactics. At level 1, we get the Rally ability, which "bolsters the team against enemy attacks." However, when successfully used (50% chance there), checking the status icon it produces states that it grants a team-wide bonus to attacks. Isn't that what SteadyAim was supposed to be? Again, an effect of dubious and less-than-visible usefulness. Levels 2 and 4 are again defense bonuses; why are these bonuses not at the same levels as under Leadership? Regardless, they share my concerns about the visibility of their usefulness. Level 3 gives Retreat, which is again nearly useless. You don't run in a group fight; you have to stick it out and hope that you can pull through. Running guarantees defeat.

Master: More group defense, terrain negotiation, and burst run efficiency. All of these "benefits" are of questionable value, as I've already outlined.

A basic rule is not just to complain about what is wrong, but to suggest realistic changes to fix it. So, what bonuses SHOULD a Squad Leader be able to grant, in lieu of what is currently in play?

1. Novice. The basic premise of the profession is that a group under disciplined leadership is more effective than a mob of mavericks and individualists. While this is true in reality, translating it into game terms becomes difficult. I would suggest that you cannot enforce disciplined behavior on other players, but rather game mechanics should be invented to simulate such. A Novice Squad Leader should be able to designate a target which would somehow become highlighted for the group members. It would then be up to them to actually attack the target (with whatever attack they choose) or not. (Using /sysgroup to designate a target, which I think is a primary use of such an ability,is less than helpful when facing a group of identical mobs.)

2. Mobility: My suggestion would be to make the Mobility lineexactly like the Scout Exploration line, except the bonuses would be group bonuses. Level 2 would grant MaskGroupScent, allowing the Squad Leader to mask the entire group under a single masked scent, which would be tested as a single umbrella (if it breaks for one, it breaks for everybody). This means a Squad Leader could move a large group through the wilderness at speed, while keeping them safe from wandering aggro mobs. These bonuses would either be cumulative with Scout bonuses, or else only the Squad Leader's would apply (it is a military maxim that a group is only as fast as its slowest member).

3. Strategy.The Strategy line is geared towards improving a group effort. So, I would propose that itinclude somebonuses to group members targetting the SL's selected target (that is, a target "painted" with the proposed Novice ability). Instead of a SteadyAim ability, why not just apply an automaticto-hit bonus for all group members attacking the target already painted by my suggested Novice ability? After that, why not give a damage bonus (YES, something that people will SEE and APPRECIATE)? If all the Strategy line did was offer these things in proportianately increasing values(ONLY to targets selected by the Squad Leader using their Novice ability, mind you, so it does no good if the SL goes down, or for people choosing different targets), I think it would be worthwhile.

4. Leadership. Again, leadership and inspiration these things cannot be enforced, merely simulated. Abilities granted here should relate to characters being inspired and motivated to succeed by having a charismatic leader behind them. Effects might include increased effectiveness of combat healers, reduced special move HAM costs, reduced damage from attacks (likethe BrawlerToughness bonus), bonus skill mods like Defense vs. [Intimidate, Dizzy, Stun, Posture Change, Knockdown, Blind]. These bonuses would require the leader to remain active; they would go away while the leader is incapped (morale drops when your leader is down). (Again, some of these bonuses are VISIBLE and APPRECIABLE by your group members, which should help the profession's prestige.)

5. Tactics. The goal of this tree seems primarily defensive. Here is where I think all the group defense bonuses should apply (I see no reason to split melee and ranged defense into two separatetrees, especially when their worth is of dubious value to begin with). Retreat should be done away with; the game does not reward running away, especially in groups. Rally conceptually should fall under Leadership anyway (a rally is not a "tactic" but rather a force of personality to boost morale). It could additionally be the taking of reduced damage (another VISIBLE and APPRECIABLE effect) like the Toughness mod (if applied under Tactics, it would obviously be left out of Leadership in lieu of other bonuses I listed there), or a Dodge bonus.

5. Master. It costs 4.9 million SL xp to master all four branches of the profession. Therefore, I think the Master title is deserving of some sort of bonus skill, and not just slight increases to bonuses the profession already provides. A team led by a Master Squad Leader should be brutally efficient; it is therefore my opinion that this level should grant a skill which is used on a properly "painted" target (again using my proposed Novice ability) which would make all attacks against the target which would normally hit a random HAM bar, instead hit a SPECIFIC bar (perhaps in the process doing slightlyless damage --75% normal?). Special attacks which are already specific in what they hit (HeadShot, etc.) would not be affected by this. Thiswould bethree separate commands (TargetHealth, TargetAction, TargetMind), allowing the SL to select which bar to focus attacks on.

None of these proposed bonuses would ever apply to the SL himself (except the proposed Master ability). The SL's purpose is to make his troops more effective. If your goal is to be more effective in combat, choose an appropriate elite combat career to supplement your squad leadership. It would be the profession everyone hopes to have around, but only a few people would be willing and dedicated enough to actually perform it. THAT'S what a Squad Leader should be.

Bravo Kaldimaar.

Seems quite a few people have suggested this "paintTarget" ability. Hopefully the devs will take notice. WhileI don't think the devs will be willing to so radically alter our skill tree, such has happened in the past (the change to the BH tree right before release comes to mind). At this rate, I'll be happy if they just give something more to novice level, increase the benefits of achieving master, and fix the ridiculous fail rate of our abilities. Anything less will be a slap in our faces, while I think they will be hesitant to try to tackle anything more all at once.

Excellent thread, both of you.

Personally I try to avoid making suggestions as to how things should be fixed, most likely due to the fact that I'm somewhat of a negative person and struggle to believe that anyone would ever use a player-made suggestion anyway.

However, I hope someone of significance picks up on this thread and takes your recommendations into consideration. This profession can only get better from where it is now.

Stumpfrowe of Kettemoor

I posted a reply to this message before, but it seems as though it didn't make it onto the board. The gist of what I had to say in reply to Kal was that I agree with everything here except the tactics. By definition tactics are what you do, not necissarily just defense. I think it would be cool if a Squad Leader could create Squad Missions, and such, and devote the tactics field to waypoints. According to the hints/holocron group members are supposed to see a group leader's waypoints, but since this doesn't work, might as well put it in with the Squad Leader. Having Squad Missions such as "kill tusken leader" and putting a waypoint over his head, or "clear target room" for a dungeon or Fort Tusken could more accurately represent the concept of "tactics." I thought every other idea he had to offer was excellent, and would at least make Squad Leaders usefull.

Malakh Hamavet - Valcyn - Squad Leader/Commando in training (don't pitty my because I picked the two most useless professions )

Awsome reply.

I can't agreemore. Your suggestions are right on the money and you solutions to making this profession necessary, but not desirable to everyone, are perfect. I hope that the devs will take notice of this post and take action, or at least give us a response. I'm not sure what the best way to get through to Q-3PO or Holocron is, but I have noticed that threads with their names in the subject field seem to get the most reply's. So my next post will be something like "Hey Holocron, what about the Squad Leaders?"

Please keep posting to this thread, even if its just to agree with what has already been posted. I realy believe that sheer numbers of posts are what get the devs attention. Keep it up guys.

Nice post kal!!!

Love those suggestions esp the part about reducing ham cost for party.

Infact Boost Morale shud distribute damage not wounds imo, and We should have an ability that heals all HAM at the expense of the SL's own HAM.

I disagree that Squad Leaders should be able to MaskScent for the group - it is my personal opinion that Rangers should have that role. I am both a Squad Leader and a Ranger and both professions need work. However the Ranger has nothing except some broken camps at this point to add to the group - group maskscent would make them invaluable in groups as Squad Leaders should be to every group. I would love to see BOTH of my professions fixed to become viable, valuable members of a group hunt/raid.

I agree with Radcliffe about group mask scent. I honestly would never think of a Squad Leader really being a scout anyway, in fact, arn't the two really quite opposite? A Squad Leader's abilities should be devoted to helping his team in combat, not having them avoid it with things that should be, In My Opinion, and obviously Radcliffe's, Ranger abilities.

SL's skills shouldn't really be similar to any other classes, and certainly not the Rangers. I'm not a ranger, but I'm a Squad Leader -- and I would much rather have some effective combat abilities then hiding/movement stuff.

On another topic though, my steady aim, at its first level never seems to fail. I've only used it a few times, but its worked everytime for me. I've heard other people complain about its high failure rate... are they humans? We get a +10 to leadership, that might be whats tipping me into the "usually works" catagory. Mind you, does seem to do anything? Well, not really. =)

I'm an 'aspiring'SL, so I haven't yet had the privelege of experiencing the class as is, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents worth in. I like Kal's ideas a lot. They would certainly go a long way towards making SL a viable class. One thing I didn't see mention though was an increase to group XP if the group contains a SL who is the Group Leader. Say you took the number of SLXP the SL gets after the battle and divided that amongst the remaining # of members in the group then multiplied by the SL's 'level' and added the # of XP to each person's take. Confused?

A group of 11 including the SL.

The SL gets 100 SLXP

Divide by the remaining 10 group members = 100/10 = 10

Then multiply by the SL's bonus for GroupLeadership (or some such skill). This would be say 1 for Novice, 2 for Tier 1 Leadership, 3 for Tier 2 Leadership ... 6 for Master SL. So if we had someone with Leadership II we would have 10 x 3 = 30

Thus granting an extra 30XP to each person. Now maybe those multipliers need some work, but that would be a nice, tangible bonus for each person in the party. The SL would not get the bonus, so people wouldn't want to be an SL simply for the XP bonues. People would want to group with the SL for the extra XP. People would want bigger groups for the extra Combat XP so the SL gets more SL XP which trickles down to each player's XP. And if people want to grouup with the SL, then the SL will get his SLXP that much faster as well. Presto - you have a class that everyone wants to have leading their group. Combined with Kal's suggestions, I think this makes SL a very useful class.

I agree that my formula may not be the best, but I look at it as a way to make SL a position that maybe not everyone wants to play, but that everyone wants to have leading their group. And as a side benefit, grouping would be much more desirable in general, taking away from the solo-ist nature the game currently has.

Re: GroupMaskScent

The problem here, is that Squad Leader prerequisites are Exploration 4 and Wilderness Survival 4, halfway tobeing Rangers themselves.It is to be expected that they will have some skills that relate to Scouting type activities. The entire current Mobility line follows this line of thought; it just follows it much too far in a useless direction. The idea seems to be that Squad Leaders are expected to be apt at maneuvering their squads safely through the wilderness. I can only think of two things that apply in this regard, the first being Terrain Negotiation (so that the group stays together, and people aren't being left in the dust), and MaskScent (to avoid detection and attack by aggro mobs).

I don't know much about Rangers or the problems associated with them; this is the Squad Leader forum, so I'm addressing them independently. It is possible that Rangers should indeedhave a group masking ability (although given the general ineffectiveness of MaskScent, I might ask for something generally more effective as a Ranger, like something to distract mobs that have gone aggro on you so that you can get away). Perhaps both classes ought to have it. The main point here is that granting repeated bonuses to Terrain Negotiation and Burst Run Efficiency are either redundant after the first application (Terrain Negotiation),or useless to begin with (Burst Run Efficiency).

Re: XP Bonus to Groups

I don't really care for this idea, because I see it as a cop-out, a cheap way to achieve a desired end (that being getting people to want SLs in groups) without really improving anything (the class would still have nothing going for it). People should want to group with SL's because of real and tangible benefits of their presence and application of their skills. With a group XP bonus, people will want to group with SL's because, well, they get an XP bonus. As a Squad Leader, I would find this horribly unsatisfying.

Hey Kal,

So you know, I meant the XP bonus to be ON TOP OF the suggestions you made, not instead of.

Scoob'ay

Dev response:

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1. Faction pets, Droids, and Creatures are worthless now so soloing is out.

Working as intended

2. The /group commands have worked maybe two days since beta.

We're looking into it.

3. The Squad Leader commands fail way to often.

Working as intended for balancing purposes.

4. PVP and Squad Leader. We need some abilities that make our group actually stonger than an opposing force that is equal in number.

Squad Leaders are not meant for PvP.

5. Enforcement and direction.

Not a priority, we will look into it when we can

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Sorry, had to do it