Squad Leader Archive

How can you tell?

I got this skill two nights ago. I tested it a few times with my trio of stormtroopers and noticed no benefit, so I figured it was just something that would effect the squad members and naturally I wouldn't have a good way to see the effect. Since then, I have used it regularly in two different lengthy groups, getting feedback from 5 different players.

Basically, what happens is this:

1) Use Steady Aim

2) Watch *steady* rise from each squad member

3) No visible effect.

None of my squad members ever noticed a single instance where it visibly raised their accuracy (+24 stayed as +24, for example). The fact that steady aim appears to be a status effect that is applied to the group would imply that you could see the effect on your group next to their HAM bars, like mask-scent or poison, but nothing is there. They see no accuracy improvement. You see no accuracy improvement.

I have two big problems with this:

1) There is no way to tell how steady aim or increases in steady aim skill affect your squad members.

2) There is no way to tell how long it lasts.

Anyone have some idea? I've searched this board and most responses to these questions is a bunch of folks dodging the actual question.

This is gonna be something that's really tough to test. I'd love to hear from a dev or someone that knows how to test it.

try this: Spam steadyaim...have a rifleman run around firing his rifle (and I mean move so his accuracy is horrible.) Make sure he gets a steadyaim before each shot. If he hits all his shots it is working as some others are reporting for commandos.

I can already tell you from experience, as anyone could that's used it twice, that steady aim does not guarantee perfect accuracy for even a single shot, and I'd hardly suggest anyone would have expected that either.

Suffice it to say this suggestion for a completely incredible test is nothing like what I'm asking for. If a dev or someone with concrete info about the skill could post what they know I'd really appreciate it. As far as I can tell this skill does absolutely nothing and noone has even noticed yet.

In defense of said skill, I believe it only adds bonuses to the "aim" skill. Which, needless to say, makes it pretty much useless. Using /aim causes a delay of about 2 seconds, or thereabouts, and thus isn't worth the time it takes. In those two seconds I can fire about 3 times with my fwg5. And so far, I seem to miss maybe 1/20 shots.

If I'm wrong, correct me. Or shoot me.

Actually, just shoot me. That'd be best at this point, I think.

i was thinking that it might be good if it lasted for a while. so, if we were about to attacksomething i could use it and it would last on the group for a few seconds (or mins) or so and get all good shots for the first shot. but i probably wouldnt use it mid battle

but when i use it you cant tell and it seems to be bugged

Zal'hanan MasterRifleman / Master SL (bloodfin)

As a commando i can tell you steady aim works.

I use an acid rifle, who'se accuracy modifier at 64m is a horrid -114.

without steady aim i will misss 10 out of 10.

Steady aim i will hit 6 or 7 of 10.

It only seems to last for 2 or 3 attack rounds.

However, for most players using decent accuracy rating weapons, this has little or no noticable effect.

If you want to *really* test is, grab a someone who has no marksman skills (aka no novice marksman), and have him shoot that CDEF with and without steady aim. you will see the difference there.

Yeah, I suppose I could spend hours of my free time testing this so that I can submit my results and be ignored, but on the other hand I think I'd rather just see if some dev could just take 5 minutes of his paid time to look at the code and get back to us. I don't have much faith in my statistical skills anywho.

On that note, it's pretty obvious that this isn't a blatantskill. It increases aim somehow, but without doing some serious down and dirty statistical work, noone knows how much it does and what modifiers might exist. The idea that it increases accuracy of low accuracy weapons more than it does for high accuracy weapons boggles the mind, and frankly I wouldn't know where to begin measuring.

I have several ideas for making this skill visible, and when that happens we can see when it's logical to use. For example, if everyone in the group is using high accuracy pistols against very difficult targets and you've learned from experience that steady aim will do nothing to those pistols, you wouldn't waste your time using it. I really like the visual indicator that *steady* is being applied to your squad, but it needs to go farther than that.

1) Give Steady Aim a status effect that can be seen next to each player's HAM bars, then we can see how long it lasts and when we need to use it again to continue the effect.

2) Make Steady Aim alter the to-hit number thatthesquad memberssee on their target (If that is indeed what it does). Thatgivesa visual indicator to your squad mates that youare adding valueto yourgroup and gives you some idea what effect you are having and when it can be better used.

Any thoughts?

Get used to the idea that as a squad leader you will only give your group 'little' bonuses that should stack with your group member's existing bonuses.

and in the end, give no noticable benefit unless you are master SL leading a group of novice artisans on a CDEF rampage womp rat hunt.

"Get used to the idea"

That's the spirit.

How do you get out of bed every morning?

What a silly question.

I got used to getting out of bed every morning. Didnt you?

NoMr. Negativity, I'm not used to getting out of bed every morning. It's a grueling experience every bloody time.

However, I'm not planning on "getting used to" anything just because that's the way it is now, even if it was as bad as you say it is (which it isn't).

it isnt?

Tell me then, what does a squad leader really give a group that is as noticable to the group's performance as having a master (insert combat elite class or medic class here or CH) does?

None. Nada. Zip.This 'you are a support class' thing is utter crap. Medics are support. CH are support. SL is support. Compare the 3. Now tell me, will a group suffer if it loses its medic? its CH? its squad leader? which of those 3 is the least important for a group? The SL. He cant provide nothing of consequence to the group, nothing of real importance.

Im a realist not a fatalist.

In dathomir I have spent a lot of time leading groups and asof late, switched my tag to 'novice smuggler' and just joined a gaggle group of people who just followed one person around from mission to mission, the 'leader' not doing nothingto coordinate group... just the usualredneck hunt team.

No difference between that and being SL. A group with some idiots geta disorganized group killed just as quickly as a group organized by an SL. and bothtypes of groups always kick out the idiot kiddies out real quick. The redneck hunting team killed nests, got xp, had a good time exactly as the team led by the SL.

So yes, get used to this proffession not being noticeable performance wise inside a group.Right now, it is only the player's attitude and personal leadership skills that make themsquad leaders, not the abilities or bonusesgiven by the skill.

Try it. Change yourtitletag, learn to change your chat window text to another color, start a group. You will lead them exactlythe sameand group will achieve exactly the same results.

And the problem with 'fixing' or 'improving' SL's is that the only way to make them a solid class is to give them solid group enchancing abilities. That in turn would make an SL -led group (or a solo SL with his own pets grouped) be unbalancingly powerful.

That is why I say that the SL should have active LEADERSHIP abilities, not passive bonuses or any + of any kind. Bonuses or boostscause imbalances which cause problems which leads to mighty swinging of the nerf bat.

If it was me, i'd delete the entire SL tree and replace with abilities only. no terrain mods, no defense mods, no attack mods.

Since im at work, bored, here's another super lengthy idea post ( )

Movement Tree:

Box1 (5pnt box): Formations (only work when members have you on autofollow): Wedge, Vee, Inline, Line Abreast, Diamond. (lasts until command removed by SL)

Box2: Infiltration (only affects those in a groupformation): group is not detected in radar range until its inside 64m. Lasts 1 minute.

Box3: Concealment (onlyaffects those in a group formation): group invisible to radar at any range as long as group does not move. Any group member moving will be seen in radar until his movements stop. Lasts5 minutes or until SL moves (SL moving cancels thegroup effect)

Box4 (2pnt box): March(again, only affects those in formation): group members receive thesame terrain negotiation as thesquad leader has, as long as they are in formation.

Strategy Tree:

Box1: Waypoint Set: SL puts mouse in either radar or in the game screen, presses hotkey, creates waypoint that all group will see (if SL has no target) or creates waypoint for individual squad member (if SL has squad member targetted).

Box2: Satellite Uplink: SL gives whole group increased radar range out to 512m. Will show all player characters and existing in-game npc's (we all know some npc's just spawn in your face, but this will show those that are far away and have already spawned). Lasts 1 minute.

Box3: Fire Team Designation: SL has the ability to split group into subgroups of players. in SL's screen the individual players dissapear from his (and only his) group listing and are replaced by the person designated as leader of sub-group (aka, the first squad member to be assigned to subgroup) with a star icon next to his ham bars.. 1 star icon per member in subgroup.

SL then can just click on subgroup leader and issue an order to that subgroup only.. if no subgroup leader is selected then order goes to the whole group.

Box4: Rules of Engagement: Powerful SL ability that will pop a message in each squad member's screen (a-la system message) that will tell the group member the effectiveness of his equipped weapon vs what he has targetted.This will take into account target's resists and armor rating (for example, group member targetting armor2 creature that has 50% energy resist while having a 0 armor penetetration energy damage weapon: 'ROE: Cannot Penetrate Armor, Weapon 50% Effective against target').

Leadership Tree

Box1:Rally: Action-intensive SL ability,Removes all effects on group members. Bleeds,Stun,Blind,On Fire, Dizzy,etc. Can only be used every2 minutes.

Box2: Target Designation: Group members will see SL's target having a 'waypoint' light pillar.

Box3: Field Discipline: Mind-intensive SL ability, group receives increased primary ham bar regeneration, lasts 2 minutes, does not affect the SL.

Box4: Hold Fire/Fire at Target: Powerful SL abilities, Hold Fire prevents group from ENTERING combat, Fire at Target makes group ENTER combat firing at SL's target. This does not work on group members already in combat or if SL is in combat. Group members lose the hold fire/fire at target command if they are attacked.

Tactics Tree:

Box1: Steady Aim: Makes group's shots be like if they were usingtheir own /aim command, but without taking a combat roundpenalty. Lasts 1 minute.

Box2: Volley Fire: Lower spd of group's weapons to 1 sec, have all group fire at SL's targetfor 5 seconds,after 5 secs squad's weapons return to their normal spd's.

Box3: Cover Fire: Works just like the current volley fire, except that group fires at an area 50m around SL's target. Shots from group will cause a random effect on anything they hit: bleed,stun,dizzy,knockdown,blind.

Box4: Smoke Screen: SL lays a screen of smoke 100m long, 20m in front of him. Smoke severely hampers the ranged accuracy of everyone 150m near it (including group members).

Hrm, well apparently we're thinking alike. But telling people "get used to it" implies that nothing will ever change, because that's really the only reason you would need to get used to it. Certainly doesn't seem like a reasonable reply to a request for change. That's what I call fatalist, but you aren't fatalist (or you wouldn't have posted all those tweak ideas) so I can't tell what you are except maybe just really frustrated that change has not come in a reasonable amount of time.

FYI, you said, and I'll quote you here "in the end, [squad leaders] give no noticable benefit unless you are master SL leading a group of novice artisans on a CDEF rampage womp rat hunt." No, squad leaders are nowhere near that bad, which is all I said. You can't possibly argue that convincingly in the face of effective use of steady aim for crap-for-accuracy weapons and ranged weapon defenses unless you equate Commandos with novice artisans wielding CDEF's. Looking at some of the very insightful threads around here, people have indeed noticed the effect that Squad Leaders have under certain circumstances. Changing your tune to "which class ismore noticeable" is adifferent argument entirely, and one which I am unwilling to disagree with you on.

Having said that, I like a lot of your ideas.

The real question is, how do we make em happen?

Since I started this thread on the topic of making Steady Aim less ambiguous, I'd like to discuss your change idea.

"Box1: Steady Aim: Makes group's shots be like if they were usingtheir own /aim command, but without taking a combat roundpenalty. Lasts 1 minute."

First it would make sense to tell us what Steady Aim does now, because very few of us understand it as is. Without understanding how it is now, there's really no rational basis for agreeing with you to change the entire effect. As far as I know, that could be how Steady Aim works now.

Please enlighten me =)

Also, it frustrates me that we have tosimply trust that the skill works rather than being given visible queues that the skill is working or any indication of how effective it is. If you were to shoot a creature and it never showed how much damage you did until 5 minutes later it died, and you didn't even know how big the creature was, wouldn't you be curious about whether your combat abilities were what they should be? For the same reason, it makes sense to have visual queues for Steady Aim. Someone should be able to easily see how much it's helping them, and the Squad Leader should be able to see how long it lasts. Wouldn't you like that to be a part of your tweak idea?

Anyway, thanks for not allowing this thread to degenerate. I'd love to hear everyone's ideas =)