Squad Leader Archive
Thread: People are already whining about how SLs are gunna be overpowered...
Killer7000 wrote:
quite sad actually
It never fails someone (or group of someones) alwayshas to cry nerf. I have to say after reading the changes to SL it seemsthe SLwont be overpowered but more like the group they support will have an advantage over a group that does not have a SL. Now call me nuts but 'ant that the way it should be??
Having played this morning on TC-Prime with my MSL grouped with another MSL, the fact that currently you can stack the new SL buffs does make a group with multi squad leaders pretty tough to beat. The effects are noticable and very effective. The server is very unstable right now so it is hard to fully test with zone crashes going on pretty often. Once the devs stablize the code ( I would assume on Tuesday) we can really get going on how this stuff really works. The new buffs we get are fun 
Padua
Master Squad Leader/Master Bounty Hunter/CM 4-0-0-0
Metropolis of Skystone, Tatooine on TC-Prime
I haven't been able to test yet, but just reading in concept I think that the overall power a SL can project onto a group is probably kept in check. For every SL in a group that is one other professionnot being represented. Also I'm not sure if those group buffs can stack from multiple SLs. (I know the individual ones do)
The point is, it would be nice to know how the things should be kept in check. Don't get me wrong, i love the current concept, but already from first time reading it, some things loudly screamed into my ears how to abuse it. Dabbling into one line of SL is not that expencive in terms of skillpoints, especially for the people who already have bounty hunter in their setup.You won't need an master SL to cover the team with 8 different buffs if your people spread a bit out on different lines of SL.
This screams for abusing, and abuse usually leads to painful nerfing. This is why i'd prefer it if such invitations for abuse are removed beforehand and dealt with in a sensbile manner, instead of a painful "quickfix" in the life system. If there are some mechanics in place which prevent abuse, them you can consider all my concerns as void and nothing. I will grind up a char on TC for testing, but i am not the fastest grinder so i can't say if i manage in time.
As long as i don't have that char up there, i can only see what is written for concept and what info is given to us, and within those limits i see a serious flaw which must be taken care of.
So anyone who is whining is just doing so out of ignorance. We don't know how it is all balanced yet.
At least you won't hear Jedi whine that a BH is using a SL to exploit and beat them: you can't receive helpful buffs from the outside if you are involved in a BH/Jedi fight.
Perhaps someone should test this just to keep the impending whine machine from getting into full gear, LOL.
but you can have them applied before the fight, the critical damage one is worry some to me. It works a little too well, and is easily dabbable and currently a group is not needed to apply it, so you can apply it to yourself.I play both a SL and a Jedi, and both often, and let me tell yah w/ jedi damage the way it is the crit shot help tear jedi apart. I cant imagine a crit shot w/ sniper shot and a trandoshan rifle. i wish theyd just fix some jedi/Bh stuff so other proff dont get stuck w/ the baggage. When i played with that buff on TC earlier it was great, but perhaps debalancing.
Ternque01 wrote:
At least you won't hear Jedi whine that a BH is using a SL to exploit and beat them: you can't receive helpful buffs from the outside if you are involved in a BH/Jedi fight.
Perhaps someone should test this just to keep the impending whine machine from getting into full gear, LOL.
Message Edited by Zekk- on 09-03-2005 06:09 PM
Zekk- wrote:
but you can have them applied before the fight, the critical damage one is worry some to me. It works a little too well, and is easily dabbable and currently a group is not needed to apply it, so you can apply it to yourself.I play both a SL and a Jedi, and both often, and let me tell yah w/ jedi damage the way it is the crit shot help tear jedi apart. I cant imagine a crit shot w/ sniper shot and a trandoshan rifle. i wish theyd just fix some jedi/Bh stuff so other proff dont get stuck w/ the baggage. When i played with that buff on TC earlier it was great, but perhaps debalancing.
Ternque01 wrote:
At least you won't hear Jedi whine that a BH is using a SL to exploit and beat them: you can't receive helpful buffs from the outside if you are involved in a BH/Jedi fight.
Perhaps someone should test this just to keep the impending whine machine from getting into full gear, LOL.
I'm sorry, but the past year of SWG was nothing but them fixing BH/Jedi crap to the point that no one like you got any fixes as well. How long do those SL individual buffs last anyways? Probably not longer than 10 minutes, and I doubt it would swing a fight enough in a BH's favor to kill a Jedi anyhow. Most Jedi that die, die as a result of not running away when the timing is good.
Point being: I'll be damned if I'm going to see MORE development time go into BH/Jedi, and I'd be absolutely outraged if they decided to not include the skills because it could be exploited by the BH/Jedi system.
I say put the SL changes in as planned and either code a shorter buff time or BH TEFs eliminating those buffs. Fix it where it is broken, but leave these SL enhancements alone.
Fordep wrote:
the point of Squad Leader is to tip the balance and to make your group run better than a group without one.
Makes perfect sence to me that a group with one or several SLs should be a tough fight.
They should probibly limit active SL buffs to 2 or 3 to preventa SL/Dabbler group from being able to ultra-buff (dunno how it'd work out in the end but from what I've figured on paper it'd be pretty nasty to have 4+ SLs in a group and some of those SLs could only have a few boxes)
TheRealXur wrote:
Tipping the balance is fine, making SL the deciding factor in all combat is not. (a)
...
The new "buffs" sound interesting. But none should last longer than 60 seconds and should only be applied by a SL that is leader of the group. (b)
Also the range needs to be limited to about 64m, not 128 or 256. If you are working as an effective group, then you will be within 64m of your group leader.
Also, in all fairness to the other support professions such as Medic/Doc/Combat Medic the SL should generate AI "hate" for using their abilities. (d)
(a) not THE but A deciding factor. The problem is here to find the balance between usefull and useless. If the impact of having a SL in a group is not a factor at all, why group with him and not rather have a nother alpha class. If the impact of a multiple 8ppl sl group is to high, why allow multiple squad leaders?
(b) yes, those 30 minutes are too long. Doctor buffs should last that long. Squad leader buff should be high BUT short so you can apply them each depending on the current combat situations and switch fast between them.
(c) No, the 128m range or even 256m range is okay, especially with base defense and attacks. You sometimes need to scatter your group a little bit to distract or lure away your opponent from his objective. a 64 m range esepcially with the lag and now loss of terrain negotiation will seriously hurt the group as nowbody will be in range anymore so make it 128 or even 256 m range.
(d) volleyfire is drawing already a lot of hate and there are two new commands that either reduced the hate or increase the hate of a player grouped with the squad leader. Those two will, if they work, help the doctor as well as the tank, if the squad leader uses them right.
Blackferne wrote:
I haven't been able to test yet, but just reading in concept I think that the overall power a SL can project onto a group is probably kept in check. For every SL in a group that is one other professionnot being represented. Also I'm not sure if those group buffs can stack from multiple SLs. (I know the individual ones do)
So anyone who is whining is just doing so out of ignorance. We don't know how it is all balanced yet.
Agreed. This is the main reason these changes are in testing and comments from the SL community have been requested. I'm in the process of d/l'ing at least part of the test center so hopefully I can grind up to at least novice SL pretty quickly to help check things out. (This would happen when I have auction deliveries to make on my regular server.....good-natured grumbling.) I'm all for all these changes making their way into live but not if it leads to a nerf which puts us in a far worse situation than we already are. I'll stick with the three decent working specials plus our passive bonuses if it means we avoid getting nerfed into obscurity. Also, I'm all for the group buffs being restricted to just the SL/Groupleader. Leave the individual buffs to the rest who may be in the group or lessen their effects by the non-leaders if possible.