Smuggler Archive
Thread: Idea for FD & Smuggler Bounties
An idea I threw out yesterday on this same subject involved droids (I base this on the discussions going around over the last few months that a BH is only as good as his tools). Assuming Smuggler missions would be the same lvl missions as Jedi (Invest3 or 4...where ever it is post revamp), give MBH's a cert for a FD Detection droid. The droid has a fixed detection value (same as detination power, etc.) that's determined by the Droid Engineer that built it (I like to involve other professions whenever possible instead of making something a skill). On the other hand, Smugglers still have a FD skill mod. If a Smuggler FD and the droid detects that it's FD, the smuggler is forced out of FD. However, if the Smuggler's skill is above the droid'sdetection ability then the smuggler remains in FD. There of course could be some margin of error in the droid so you could havea smuggler witha lower FD skill than the droid's detection ability, but still fools the droid. A Master Smuggler would be detectable only by the best built droids (perhaps using rare components acquired through a BH quest).
Rockhurst wrote:I recently posted this as a reply on the BH forum and throught I'd post it here to see what Smugglers thought. Granted, this all depends on what gets implemented in the Smuggler Revamp, but no harm discussing it now.My Post:I think most people will agree that smugglers (what should have been one of the best 3 professions in the game) have gotten the VERY short end of the stick. You're lucky you'll have GreenMarine doing your revamp and from what's been said so far, you'll come out of it with a great profession that will be the envy of many of the non-Jedi fanboys. And, I agree with you that some of the ideas being thrown out would be a nerf to smugglers. However, even your own correspondent admits that the FD system needs to be revamped and something MUST be done if Smuggler bounties are ever implemented.An idea I threw out yesterday on this same subject involved droids (I base this on the discussions going around over the last few months that a BH is only as good as his tools). Assuming Smuggler missions would be the same lvl missions as Jedi (Invest 3 or 4...where ever it is post revamp), give MBH's a cert for a FD Detection droid. The droid has a fixed detection value (same as detination power, etc.) that's determined by the Droid Engineer that built it (I like to involve other professions whenever possible instead of making something a skill). On the other hand, Smugglers still have a FD skill mod. If a Smuggler FD and the droid detects that it's FD, the smuggler is forced out of FD. However, if the Smuggler's skill is above the droid's detection ability then the smuggler remains in FD. There of course could be some margin of error in the droid so you could have a smuggler with a lower FD skill than the droid's detection ability, but still fools the droid. A Master Smuggler would be detectable only by the best built droids (perhaps using rare components acquired through a BH quest).
Your thoughts?
a truly wonderful idea. but there must be a margin of error on the side of the BH to right? i mean if sometimes the droid would act up and fail then somtimes the smuggler would twitch his eye so to speak and fail to... perhaps a random chance based tightly around the smugglers FD skill vs the droid "skill"
my 2 cents
One thing I will say decissively is that a smuggler has very close to 0 chance of surviving on the BH terminals for any length of time the way things are right now. BH are an enhanced combat class (I even took BH to get the pistol mods as they were nicer than pistoleer for me) and we are a... well, I'm not even sure what the heck we are. We don't smuggle, we make lousy buff spices... we are armor and weapon enhancement kits with a really cool AI, that's probably what the general community sees. But I digress....the point is, the BH is a better combat class if you go Master BH to Master Smuggler. Sure, we can be TKM, just like them. But pound for pound, the BH is a far better combat class. Add to that the advantages of being the BH (first shot, always buffed, always fully equiped, choosing the time and place) and we really have no chance of winning the fight.
So, before we start talking about nerfing FD, and that is what we are talking about here, we need a counter to the dozen things the BH have on us. Right now, we have exactly one, and that one is broken. FD means we get to counter the choosing the place and time advantage with our own opting out of this particular place and time. Before we change that, in all actuality, pretty balanced response, we need to fix FD to work correctly. It is not fair to anyone that the combat flag doesn't go away. I've accidentally stuck enemy faction at a shuttleport when I 'opted out' of a fight with FD and they couldn't leave. If feign worked correctly, no targetting, healing by medic, grouping, messaging while FD, etc... then we would have a starting point for considering balancing our ability to survive without FD against the BH getting the ability to either make it harder for us to feign or have some 'device' which allows them to sometimes counter the ability.
I thought I'd copy these comments from another thread to this one...trying to keep all discussion on this in one thread.
true_Kieran wrote:
Sounds reasonable too for when there are smuggler missions on terminals, would solve the problem with jedis too I guess, only missing is when a BH feigns.
NightGun wrote:
FD and smuggler bounties huh. I think that if you area smuggler running from a BH FD better be the farthest thing from your miind. Bounties generally require a trophy (your head) which very quickly changes FD into D. I think that is a skill that should be mostly used only in PVE in PVP you should still be able to DB a smuggler that is FD'd thus making them not want to do this. It does require extra time from a player to perform a DB but it could be worth it. I think rather than adding more complexity to the end of the Hunt make the actual hunt the fun part and fix FD and PVP altogether (You shouldn't FD in PVP cause someone might kill you for real). Lets face it it doesn't make much sense for someone to just lye on the ground in the middle of a battle uless for nefarious purposes and most of the time enemy soliders would take the time to make sure everyone was dead.
- It would be next to impossible to FD in only PvE. You could still exploit it by attacking an NPC and immediately FDing. Plus, the devs won't limit skills to certain subsets of the player base. You need to be able to offer the same skills to both the PvP & PvE players. If anything I think it would be the opposite. If you FD to a Krayt, it shouldn't get bored and walk away...it should enjoy it's freshly killed dinner.
- The idea is to keep FD a skill and to have a viable counter. If a Novice Smuggler is hunted by a MBH, the MBH should have a distinct advantage in detecting the player has FDed. However, if a MBH is hunting a Master Smuggler, both should have an equivalent chance of success.
- There are several reasons why someone may want to FD in PvP. A jedi might do it so his guildmates might rescue him from the BH before the BH can have a chance at completing the mission.
GrimRebuke wrote: One thing I will say decissively is that a smuggler has very close to 0 chance of surviving on the BH terminals for any length of time the way things are right now. BH are an enhanced combat class (I even took BH to get the pistol mods as they were nicer than pistoleer for me) and we are a... well, I'm not even sure what the heck we are...the point is, the BH is a better combat class if you go Master BH to Master Smuggler. Sure, we can be TKM, just like them. But pound for pound, the BH is a far better combat class. Add to that the advantages of being the BH (first shot, always buffed, always fully equiped, choosing the time and place) and we really have no chance of winning the fight. So, before we start talking about nerfing FD, and that is what we are talking about here...
GrimRebuke,
You are correct, BHs are a better combat class. I keep up on a lot of the Combat Revamp hints that are given. A constant theme of the Revamp is that your combat abilitiesare defined by the number of skill points required. So, a 169 point MBH should always have a combat advantage over a Master Smuggler. However, when both players spend all 250 skill points in combat, they should be comparable and tactics will determine the outcome. That is why I argue that a counterless skill that allows players to opt-out of combat (especially in the case of BH missions on smugglers) is justified because one player hasmore combat skills than the other. I expect Smugglers will get some very good treatment in the revamp on their combat skills. If you spend more of your remaining skill points on combat, you should be a very good match against a MBH. Also, the HAM changes that will accompany the Revamp might make some specials such as eyeshot, not so special anymore. You are correct that the BH has a hand up in combat due to having the first shot and can be fully prepared for the attack. But, that's part of the hunt. The hunted should never know when it's coming and a good BH will wait till the target is at its weakest before attacking. Saying that FD is meant so a BH can't choose when and where to fight just doesn't make sense to me. That's like saying an overt player isn't overt until he/she is fully buffed and agrees to fight.
Message Edited by Rockhurst on 10-12-2004 12:19 PM
The advantage of being the BH is that you get to choose when and wear. The advantage to being a smuggler is that we are masters at the art of evasion. Not that if we also happen to be TKM, we have a fair shot at surviving if we were lucky enough to get buffed ahead of time. that's not our class's key advantage. It is the ability to run and hide better than most anyone else that sets the smuggler apart. Feign Death is, unfortunately, the only real skill we have in that department. IF we take up pistoleer you can add stopping shot. IF panic shot worked correctly and stopped PC's and the next shot did not auto-release your target, then we would have two escape tools. But right now, we really only have one, Feign Death.
The opt-out isn't to balance against a superior combat class. It is to balance against the BH being the only class in game that gets non-consensual style attacks with no requirement to risk being attacked back if they do not wish to be. You can't take a smuggler mission to go kill some BH while he is standing around coronet waiting to get buffed. But you can escape the battle with an FD and live to get chased around another day.
Now, I will say that with the Jedi/BH contest going on, FD has shown its ugly side. For one, it is broken in about 4 ways. For two, there is no downside to using feign for either class. And there is definate downside for Jedi in getting killed. considerably less for a BH getting killed, but they still could lose the mission and whatever time they spent hunting the Jedi. I have suggested, and seen others suggest, allowing for an XP loss for Jedi and I've recommended auto-failing the BH mission when the BH feigns. The Jedi has more to lose than just some wounds and equipment fatigue when they die, so the BH should have more to lose as well. I've recommended a system that allows a downpayment from the BH to take a player mission that is forfeit if the mission is failed through death or using FD. I'm curious as to why you feel this wouldn't work.
GrimRebuke wrote:
I have no desire to make a PvP template in order to be a successful smuggler. The fact that any player who wants to partake in the GCW or PvP needs to be a TKM is just silly to me. But enough on that.
The advantage of being the BH is that you get to choose when and wear. The advantage to being a smuggler is that we are masters at the art of evasion...It is the ability to run and hide better than most anyone else that sets the smuggler apart. Feign Death is, unfortunately, the only real skill we have in that department...right now, we really only have one, Feign Death.
The opt-out isn't to balance against a superior combat class. It is to balance against the BH being the only class in game that gets non-consensual style attacks with no requirement to risk being attacked back if they do not wish to be. You can't take a smuggler mission to go kill some BH while he is standing around coronet waiting to get buffed. But you can escape the battle with an FD and live to get chased around another day.
...there is no downside to using feign for either class. And there is definate downside for Jedi in getting killed. considerably less for a BH getting killed, but they still could lose the mission and whatever time they spent hunting the Jedi...I'm curious as to why you feel this wouldn't work.
Shortened your quote in the interest of saving room...
I agree, the Smuggler's emphasis should be on evasion. Don't take my suggestion for FD as the only change that Smugglers should receive. To me, Smugglers should have a whole "tool box" of evasion skills at their disposal. FD should be the last option, but as it stands today without a counter it often becomes the first option and isn'tthe tactical skill it should be.
The question is, who should be able to counter a FD? Ifthe FD counter isa simple posture up attack (depending on how things change with the revamp) just about anyone can counter that attack. I see Smugglers as one of the "great" professions in SWG (post revamp) along with BHs & Jedi. What I am suggesting is limiting the ability to detect FD to those three professions...with perhaps adding in Master Commando.
Keep in mind that the idea (which, as far as we know it's still just an idea) would be the smuggler makes a conscience decision to take actions (either keeping deliver goods or slicing terminals) that are high risk and can cause the Smuggler to appear on the BH terminals. It's a risk/reward scenario. If you don't want to risk PvP, don't pursue those rewards. What I meant by the skill point comment is that if you're a smuggler taking these risks, you need to either A) be prepared for a BH coming after you, B) spend enough skill points that you can compete against a BH (included some Revamp notes from garvin) or C) either slice the terminal yourself or hirer a skilled PvP Smuggler to slice the BH terminal for you to remove your name. What I liked about GreenMarine's ideas for the Smuggler Revamp is that you still have non-PvP options (hiring another Smuggler to slice the terminals for you or not taking the risk in the first place).
I have mixed feelings on BH penalties. Not because I'm a BH, but for game mechanics. Look at it this way. For Jedi, BH missions are the risk they take by deciding to take the Jedi path. BHs are a visibility control (Jedi shouldn't be waving their lightsabers infront of the starport in the capital of the same planet that Vader & the Emperor are hanging out). Same goes forSmugglers. If you want tokeep thehigh quality goods or chargebick bucks to remove someone from the BH terminals, you riskbeing hunted. If you read one of my other posts today, you can see all the expenses a BH must absorb just to have a fighting chance against a decent Jedi. So, if you add on top of those costs a monetary penalty forfailure(which, as it stands now most rangedBHs go into the hunt expecting to loose), you're taking away any reason a BH would have forpursuing a mission andessentially removing a critical game mechanic (Jedivisibility control). Yes, BHs have first-strike ability, but they are guaranteed not to hit on 85% of their next strikes. It's unfortunate that the BH mission system only allows for 3 levels of missions. If it could be upped to 4, the penalty for failurecould be a BH mission on the BH given to MBHs only...but, with all the challenges BHs currently face it's not reasonable to implement at this time. But, it would make a great addition to the smuggler revamp (think about it...BH fails a mission on the smuggler, gets a mission on his own head, goes to smuggler to ask smuggler to remove the BH from the BH terms).
Sorry if I went off on a tangent. I wanted to keep this mainly on Smuggler missions & FD, but I also wanted to address your comments.
Edit: Sorry, forgot to add the link...after having to write that post twice (stupid PM button), I'm too lazy for clicky.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=commando&message.id=74104#M74104
Message Edited by Rockhurst on 10-13-2004 02:34 PM