Smuggler Archive
Thread: Depending On Smugglers
Smugglers have been working towards stronger class definitions and roles for quite some time, and justly so. Smugglers often complain that there is little to smuggle and they've got a point. Similarly other professions could use a lot of work. As a swordsman I'm still waiting for my own class definition.
A lot of the things that come up, however, necessarily have an impact on other players. Contraband scans or for a more recent item (albeit one that has been in the game for quite some time), opening maglocks, cut into the game that other non-smugglers play. As a non-smuggler, when solo'ing caves, I find that I cannot open most of the containers. As a non-smuggler and a rebel or neutral I find that I have no defense against scans when I am solo'ing or in a group that does not contain a smuggler.
And I'll be frank, I don't find this very "fun". Why should I be penalized just for not having a regular smuggler groupy? Why should I not be able to access a significant portion of loot when I solo?
Here's the thing, I think smugglers definitely deserve better content and I'm quite willing to depend on smugglers . . . but in a way that doesn't take away my time or cut into my own role in the game. I want to spend my time being a swordsman and interacting with swordsman content and not creating content for smugglers. I already depend on a lot of people: chefs, BE's, tailors, armorsmiths, weaponsmiths, docs, smugglers, etc. The thing is, I can get what I need from these people by bartering my profits as a swordsman. I can pay for most of what I need from these people in short order and then move on. I need only interact with a weaponsmith every few weeks or so if I want to. I am financially dependent but invest very little time into this interaction.
So, what I'm suggesting is really a conscientious look at what Smuggler change entail for non-smugglers. In suggesting new systems I hope that we don't find ourselves headed to things that are just a headache for any non-smuggler.
Examples:
Contraband. If I have to find a smuggler simply to move around with the items I have then that is too much of a time investment. However if a smuggler can provide illicit goods that I need I will gladly pay for them. Instead of seeking systems that actively hamper a player at all points I suggest systems that allow smugglers to provide perks to other professions but use the Smuggler's time. You spend your time being a smuggler and I'll spend mine being a swordsman, and after all of that I will gladly fork over some of my profits for some of your ill-gotten gains.
Maglocks. There seems to be contention against the idea that smugglers could offer maglock breaking kits. To me it seems clear that I need such a thing. I often solo caves without a smuggler and a lot of loot is simply off-limits for no particularly good reason. Smugglers don't gain anything by me not being able to loot, stuff just sits there. However I do understand that smugglers want to be part of this process and want to have a role here. My suggestion is either that smugglers have a tangible benefit to opening these contgainers (i.e. do not use resources, have a higher chance of success, etc.) OR maglocks become like higher level locked containers, i.e. lootable in locked form. If we had high level locked containers with good loot, and a secure trade ability, I could store up these maglocks and then obtain the services of a smuggler at my leisure. Another suggestion is that Smugglers could provide a grouping bonus to loot (if this is possible). Perhaps for every smuggler in a group there the chance of receiving a loot item is multiplied by 110% (or some other number). This gives a tangible reason to group with a smuggler without denying anything in particular to those that do not.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that I see a need to dovetail smuggler content with the way in which other players play. I see a significant number of smuggler concepts that are going to dig into the way I play and this concerns me. Other players will, I think, be much more receptive to ideas that allow smugglers to help them but do not require significant hassles, loss of gameplay options or loss of time that should be spent on their own profession's content/role.
And I'm really just offering a suggestion, not a flame nor a troll. Take it as you will.
This is the very thought process I was referring to in the other thread -- the idea that no one should have to "modify their play style" to accomplish what they want to in-game. Let me start by saying that I agree, to a certain point -- one of the things I positively loathed about EverQuest was that, beyond a certain character level, you couldn't accomplish anything without a group.
In my mind, though, the opposite situation -- no one depends on anyone -- is not really any better. And by "depend", I mean have an actual, meaningful interaction -- something beyond buying merchandise, or on-the-spot services. To accomplish certain things in game, I believe it should be necessary to team up with other players. And right now, that "must group" threshhold is set waaaay too high (the Geonosian Caves, Krayts, a few other spots).
But to the heart of the matter -- where is it written that crushing all of the creatures in a cave entitles you to the loot in all of the containers? I mean, you got the experience, and any loot that was on the bodies, so it's not as though you're not being compensated for your efforts. From this perspective, it could be argued that getting the loot in the containers is your reward for putting together a good team.
"But wait!", you say, "A smuggler/TKA/Pistoleer could solo the dungeon and get all of the loot I got, PLUS the loot in the containers!" And that is true -- because that player went to the effort, and dumped all of those skill points, into being the uber-combat-smuggler that he is. Presumably, you spent your skill points elsewhere, so you can do some things that he can't do. Hunting bounties? Making weapons? Getting paid for giving mind buffs? Running a player town? None of those things are options for the fighting smuggler. Suddenly, being able to crack open a crate of sticks and cheap pistols doesn't seem like such a great deal, compared to all he's giving up.
I said it in the other thread, and I'll say it again -- a game without obstacles is pointless. Everyone WANTS to be a jedi, and WANTS to hunt bounties, and WANTS to make that +12 Vorpal Bowcaster, but the truth of the matter is that if everyone could, this "game" would be boring as hell.
I'm getting off on a rant here, so I'm going to go have lunch...
I can see your point about wanting to be able to experience the content available in the game on your own. However, you seem to be neglecting the fact that, by design, the game is not supposed to be a 'solo' game. Everything to do with combat is oriented toward grouping, including the group xp bonus, the entire Squad Leader profession, multiple harvests per kill for scouts/rangers in groups, etc etc. Even the combat redesign is designed to force grouping. As the devs have said, mob difficulty is completely out of whack. No-one should ever be able to solo red con targets, yellow should be VERY hard, and white should be an even match...which we all know is not the case at this time. You have to look toward the future, to the fact that if the Devs succeed in their various revamps and balances, noone will be soloing any of these dungeons. However much you want to be able to hoard all the loot you find on a trip down the rabbit hole, you will have to do it grouped down the road.
In the devs ultimate vision, all the professions have a role in one way or another. rifleman are ranged support class, carbineers heavy fire support, commandos are front line damage dealers, TKM are the ultimate tanks, etc etc. Smugglers, we're not sure about. They've never really had the gumption to get up and say 'this is what we see for the smugglers'. They started one IC thread 2 months ago, and forgot about us since then. We're trying to help them in that department, to realize a final role for our profession. We aren't high damage dealers or good combatants, obviously. What we are in some respect is a techno support team member. We're the guys you go to for your weapon/armor ehancements. We're the guys who can open the doors in the Geo cave without a key (granted...it only works for us, not the whole team...that's an oversight, i think). We're the guys who open your locked containers. And after the combat revamp, you're going to need help going down the dungeons... we may not be great combatants, but we have Panic shot....that's kinda handy to keep a crowd off your back. 10 second delay is a good thing, even after it was nerfed, it still has some place in that respect. We have low blow's ranged kd. Let the rifleman use flurry shot, we hit 'em with low blow, and down they go...dizzy and unable to get back up. Stategy. You'll see strategy becoming important, as opposed to special spamming.
What's my point? my point is, you'll be taking us with you on group hunting sprees more, i think. We've got some very specialized skills that come in handy, even if we aren't great fighters. And best of all, having one of us with you insures that you'll be able to get that 'phat loot' out of thos MagSeal containers! What more could you ask for, really? 
However there appears to be *MUCH* confusion surrounding Mag Seal containers that wasn't helped out any by a recent dev post.
MAG SEALS, although they sometimes are locked and althought there is a 'Slice' option in their radial menu ARE NOT slicable by smugglers, but are on a timer system. If locked and a slicer atempts to open them with the slice option they are ALWAYS told the lock is broken. A smuggler, at the moment has NO better chance at looting these containers (when stuff spawns in them) then anyone else.
In my eyes, this timer system is working fine (my own experience in Aakuan caves and fort tusken), and although I never pinned it down to specific timing I have watched once locked containers unlocked a few minutes later with no player interaction whatsoever. The ONLY thing that *I'd* change with mag seals is to simply remove the slice option from the radial menu so there isn't this mass confusion surrounding them.
As for my take on slice kits mentioned in the recent dev post... well, if the devs are going to chage these off a timer system that allows anyone to loot to a system were the locks are actually slicable then I'm gonna be selfish and *not* want a consumable lockpicking kit in this game. The smuggler has a history of tools not having any impact in the result, but our individual personal skills *with* those tools. To be able to one day produce "lockpicking kits" that allow any Jack or Jill to be able to pick locks around the world (be it mag seals, geocave doors, whatever else comes in the future) just doesn't jive with this.
Think about the 'ability' of one to pick a 'real life' lock with a paperclip. I could get a room of 50 people together and hand them each a paperclip and park them infront of a locked door. Just because all 50 people have the "tool" does not mean that all 50 doors will magically become unlocked. ONLY those with the SKILLS will find themselves opening the door.
I hope to get this response in before the replies get too vocal, which I suspect they will. Smugglers are passionate about the profession.
I understand that you don't want our gameplay to inhibit yours. I agree that it should not be a zero-sum game where one profession benefits at the expense of another. However, I disagree with your points on contraband. First off, our profession is not fun, at least not in the way it can or should be, and I think adding some fun to our profession needs to be a top priority. Second, I don't consider our (supposed) ability to move contraband as limiting anyone else's opportunities for fun. We are simply enhancing their gameplay and thus their fun. Nobody needs sliced weapons or armor, nor do they need spices. They are a benefit given to the player due to the presence of smugglers. Sure, the armor is tough to wear without encumbrance slices, but you could always migrate your stats, eat some food/drink, or get doctor buffs to allow you to wear it. We are not required, so our ability to smuggle would not dampen your ability to play at all. We simply enhance it.
With magseal containers, the first issue is that they are not sliceable by anyone, period. They are on a timer, and after they've been looted, they lock until the loot respawns. The slicing tag that comes up is a bug. Now, once they decide how they're going to go with it, why do you think we would want to sell our skills for credits? Is it limiting your gameplay? Perhaps, but considering that the developers want this to be an interdependent group game, I think it is well within the developer's vision of fun that you should have a smuggler in the group if you want the greatest rewards. Again, we are not hurting your gameplay by not offering the kits, we are simply enhancing it if we are in the group.
I understand your desire for a vision and for an overall improvement of the game, but I refuse to support any proposal that relegates us to second-class citizens. Yes, it is a hard sell to get the community to accept true smuggling, and I fear that it won't happen, but as arguably one of the three most iconic classes in the game (Bounty Hunter and Jedi being the other two), I just can't submit to whoring our skills out so someone else can have more fun.
Message Edited by Sapperlight on 03-23-2004 08:26 AM
ClearNinja...
I'm not sure I agree or disagree with you.Are you saying you like having the group quests (Geonosian lab, etc)? or not? I do like the idea of having some quests that require groups, even though by nature I am a solo player. I typically onlygroup occasionally with friends forsocial hunts. Those people that despise groups will either have to change their ways or just live with the fact that they can't do that particular quest.
smuggler system that makes it harder for me to play, i want it to be fun.
I can feel you here, but there have been MANY ideas around here that
advocate contraband/illegal systems that DON'T cut into peoples everyday
gameplay (I will share one at the end of this post). I totally agree
that our smuggler revamp shouldn't make your game not fun. Totally agree,
but please, please, for the love of god don't become vocal in trying to
cut short our revamp plans by insisting on making our impact and need on
they community be harmless and ineffectual. Have you ever considered that
some of our ideas would actually make it more fun for you while at the same
time making it so that smugglers are the only people who can move highly
illegal (and desireable) goods across scan areas??? More than all I pray
that you do not become actively discouraging on the correspondant boards
of ANY robust contraband system. This is our one and only dream here, so
speaking against it does hit a nerve here.
If you are still reading, listen to this idea... a contraband/illegality
system that DOESN'T hurt you
Here goes... a few very powerfull, noncraftable spices are obtained through a smuggler mission (Kesel, etc.).
This spice is a VALUABLE optional component in normal spices and foods that
makes them quite a bit more effective (and desirable). Make it so that only
smugglers can have this in their inventory during transport, and you could
set up a very robust contraband system for this super-spice alone - applicable
to only smugglers. Smugglers are the only one who can carry it during
transport, smugglers are the only ones who can get it where it is wanted.
Now here's the catch.. it is put into foods and regular spices by chefs/etc.
Now these items become normal contraband as we have now... random scan. Is
this system so hard on you??? Nope
Does it provide a rich contrabandsystem that allow us to be the big dogs of illegal items??? Yes. We are both
happy. (Not to mention the cash we'd get for such an in demand illegal item.)
Okay, I have spent my time detailing this to you. It works for us both. Now,
for the love of all that is holy, when you go to the correspondent boards,
please take a little time to explain to everyone that is so against giving us
the love of a robust contraband system that there ARE other ideas that WORK.
If you do that, you could take slice KiTS for magseals in dungeons, but you
ain't getting them for weapons/armor
Hell, everytime I even try to slice themthe timer hasn't run out and i get "Lock is broken message". If you want some
kits to get that message too, I'm all for it.
Please take the time to spread the word on the above idea, every smuggler would
love you for it.
(And yes, it does come across as a flame when you blast in and step on the only
nerve us smuggler have left... the dream of actually smuggling for other players.)
Please be aware of that, it hurts us alot more when people are vocal against us
actually getting to do the ONLY thing we are supposed to be doing. Be kind, and
open your eyes to the state we are in, and you'll get the love us smugglers have
been really ready get also.
StGabriel wrote:
I think smugglers definitely deserve better content and I'm quite willing to depend on smugglers . . . but in a way that doesn't take away my time or cut into my own role in the game.
Ideally, I think, Smugglers be of great assistance to other players and improve their rewards but can do so in a way that complements other professions instead of removing options from other professions. Said another way, I hope that Smugglers can shoot for giving more options to my role instead of taking options away.
I'm not all saying that there shouldn't be contraband. Rather I'm saying that I hope that target systems will be fundamentally Smuggler systems that give Smugglers a chance to play as smugglers but don't require my time to create this content. We have 30+ professions. If every profession required 15 minutes a day from other players so as to have content, no one would ever have time to actually do their own content.
So it would be better (IMO) to see loot bonuses from smugglers than to see loot restrictions when not having smugglers. It would be better (IMO) to see a new market of smuggled contraband then to have a restriction on the old market. I'm all for a game where I say, "now we should get a smuggler to round out our group" but I don't want a game where I have to say, "well I just lost 20 minutes to that stupid contraband scan and now I can't loot anything in this cave because my smuggler friends are off-planet, gee doesn't this suck".
Not at all. I want Smugglers to have tangible benefits above and beyone what I can do as a Swordsman. I just don't think that it is necessary to suck the fun out of being a Swordsman in order to have these.
StGabe.
StGabriel wrote:
As of the start of this post you can consider me as a non-correspondent. I just wanted to hand off something I've been thinking about. This has little to do with prior discussions I've been involved with on this forum or my role as a player correspondent. It's just an opinion, as a non-smuggler, that I wanted to express (partially just to get feedback and better understand the community).
Smugglers have been working towards stronger class definitions and roles for quite some time, and justly so. Smugglers often complain that there is little to smuggle and they've got a point. Similarly other professions could use a lot of work. As a swordsman I'm still waiting for my own class definition.
A lot of the things that come up, however, necessarily have an impact on other players. Contraband scans or for a more recent item (albeit one that has been in the game for quite some time), opening maglocks, cut into the game that other non-smugglers play. As a non-smuggler, when solo'ing caves, I find that I cannot open most of the containers. As a non-smuggler and a rebel or neutral I find that I have no defense against scans when I am solo'ing or in a group that does not contain a smuggler.
First things first. In this game the Empire is fighting to obliterate the Rebellion. You chose a side, you should face consequences if your side is the oppressed one. This was a CHOICE that you made, and should therefore have to deal with any consequences that arise as a result of your choice. Remain Neutral and you have no problems.
Second, and this is the problem we are faced with. Spices and sliced items are supposed to be illegal, not a commodity. This was a poor implementation of these items to have not started the game with penalties for carrying these. Because they are supposed to be illegal you have a CHOICE about whether to carry them or not, and if you choose to then you should face consequences if caught. Do not carry contraband and you have no problems.
We cannot even open magseal containers. They are on a timer. Frankly, I just disagree with you wholeheartedly here, as Smugglers get the skill to open locks they should be able to open these containers as well, but inly Smugglers. Everyone else should have to wait until the correct time the locks are open, have a Smuggler with them for these locks, or invest the skill points into Smuggler to be able to open them themselves. Buy your skills with skillpoints, do not give a class's skills away with craftable items. You have the CHOICE to utilize one of these options, provided we even gain the ability to open these containers.
And I'll be frank, I don't find this very "fun". Why should I be penalized just for not having a regular smuggler groupy? Why should I not be able to access a significant portion of loot when I solo?
If you carry contraband, if you choose to join a side in the GCW, you SHOULD FACE CONSEQUENCES FROM THE OPPOSING SIDE. If you do not find it fun you have a choice to not carry those items and remain Neutral. About accessing loot: See above.
Here's the thing, I think smugglers definitely deserve better content and I'm quite willing to depend on smugglers . . . but in a way that doesn't take away my time or cut into my own role in the game. I want to spend my time being a swordsman and interacting with swordsman content and not creating content for smugglers. I already depend on a lot of people: chefs, BE's, tailors, armorsmiths, weaponsmiths, docs, smugglers, etc. The thing is, I can get what I need from these people by bartering my profits as a swordsman. I can pay for most of what I need from these people in short order and then move on. I need only interact with a weaponsmith every few weeks or so if I want to. I am financially dependent but invest very little time into this interaction.
Actually, the same is true for a Smuggler, unless you decide to carry sliced items and spice, in which case you made a CHOICE to depend on a Smuggler moreso than what is REQUIRED. See the difference?
So, what I'm suggesting is really a conscientious look at what Smuggler change entail for non-smugglers. In suggesting new systems I hope that we don't find ourselves headed to things that are just a headache for any non-smuggler.
Examples:
Contraband. If I have to find a smuggler simply to move around with the items I have then that is too much of a time investment. However if a smuggler can provide illicit goods that I need I will gladly pay for them. Instead of seeking systems that actively hamper a player at all points I suggest systems that allow smugglers to provide perks to other professions but use the Smuggler's time. You spend your time being a smuggler and I'll spend mine being a swordsman, and after all of that I will gladly fork over some of my profits for some of your ill-gotten gains.
Ok, I think you got the wrong idea here. You would still be able to move around with the illicit goods, but if caught you should be penalized. These illicit goods are NOT REQUIRED for you to be a swordsman, are they? They may make life a little easier, but they are not required. It is a CHOICE.
Maglocks. There seems to be contention against the idea that smugglers could offer maglock breaking kits. To me it seems clear that I need such a thing. I often solo caves without a smuggler and a lot of loot is simply off-limits for no particularly good reason. Smugglers don't gain anything by me not being able to loot, stuff just sits there. However I do understand that smugglers want to be part of this process and want to have a role here. My suggestion is either that smugglers have a tangible benefit to opening these contgainers (i.e. do not use resources, have a higher chance of success, etc.) OR maglocks become like higher level locked containers, i.e. lootable in locked form. If we had high level locked containers with good loot, and a secure trade ability, I could store up these maglocks and then obtain the services of a smuggler at my leisure. Another suggestion is that Smugglers could provide a grouping bonus to loot (if this is possible). Perhaps for every smuggler in a group there the chance of receiving a loot item is multiplied by 110% (or some other number). This gives a tangible reason to group with a smuggler without denying anything in particular to those that do not.
I disagree here, seeing as how at this point e cannot even open them either, and if we could it should be while we are there at the container. If you know you plan to go to a cave then have a contracted Smuggler available to slice these containers for you. If these kits are crafted then it opens the door for teh player base to assume that all locked containers should be allowed to be opened with these kits, not just Mag Seals, and you can see where that could go. Basically, this is a very bad idea to allow anyone the ability that we gain through skill point expenditure to have our skills without that skill point expenditure.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that I see a need to dovetail smuggler content with the way in which other players play. I see a significant number of smuggler concepts that are going to dig into the way I play and this concerns me. Other players will, I think, be much more receptive to ideas that allow smugglers to help them but do not require significant hassles, loss of gameplay options or loss of time that should be spent on their own profession's content/role.
Nothing here requires hassle. It is a CHOICE to carry contraband. It is a CHOICE to join the GCW. If you make these CHOICES then be prepared to face consequences.
And I'm really just offering a suggestion, not a flame nor a troll. Take it as you will.
cut short our revamp plans by insisting on making our impact and need on
they community be harmless and ineffectual.
Well exactly.
I am making this suggestion so that we can try to avoid the need for non-smugglers to get vocal about proposed smuggler changes. The last thing anyone wants is a Smuggler revamp that pisses off all 30+ other professions and has to be yanked before going live.
StGabe.